Amiga Tools 3/Amiga Tools 3.iso/grafik/raytracing/imagine/tips/arc01.txt

Text File | 1993-03-12 | 160.3 KB | 3,955 lines

IMAGINE archive: collected off of [e-mail]

ARCHIVE I
Feb 1 '91 - Feb 26 '91

If you have questions or problems with this file, email Marvin Landis
at [e-mail]

Many thanks to Doug Dyer ([e-mail]) for the previous
versions of this archive

note: each message seperated by a '##'

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Subject: Re: metal attributes by M. Halvorsen
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 91 12:52:19 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 1,  3:18pm, Mark Thompson wrote:
} Subject: Re: metal attributes by M. Halvorsen
}
} > Yes, but don't metal objects have shiny "hotspots" that sparkel white
} > highlights?  If you make hardness 255 and specular all white, won't you
} > have tiny sparkels?  I agree on the plastic look, but I read that if you
} > use less dithering you may reduce the "plastic look."
} > --Ed Chadez
}
} The hot spot (specular reflection) of a metalic object will be the color
} of the material. Take a look at a shiny brass, copper, or gold object
} under a white light and you will notice that the highlight is not white
} but colored bright yellow (varies color with each of thye mentioned
} materials). Plastic on the other hand has a distinct white highlight.
} Ofcourse so does chrome which is because it is a white metal (with a blue
} tinge). Dithering should have little to do with it except to randomize
} the coloring which might be useful to simulate a metalic flek paint
} finish like on a car.
}
}-- End of excerpt from Mark Thompson

Yes, you're right.  Had I read your original letter more closely, I would
have seen that you do brighten the specular to a color __CLOSER__ to white,
but not all the way to 255 on all guns.  That must have been why my metal
objects still look like plastic mirrors.

And on the note of dithering.  Can you eleborate a little more?  I haven't
had much success with it as a useful tool.

Thanks for the information!

--Ed Chadez


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------



##

Subject: Wdb2 and Imagine questions
Date: 1 Feb 91 11:05:19 MET (Fri)
From: [e-mail] (Helge Egelund Rasmussen)

John J. Rosner <dkuug!europa.asd.contel.com!rosner> wrote:
>There is a file called world data base at FTP site abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov
>(128.155.23.64) the file name is wdb-data.lzh and is 778,240 bytes.
>Does anyone know if this is a USGS file?  There are conflicting reports
>as to the integrity of the file, I have not downloaded it because I don't
>know enough about it yet.

I don't know anything about the file on abcfd20, but the database normally
called "the world database" is a 'flat' map of the world containing coast
lines etc. in great detail. This map doesn't contain any height information,
so it would be of dubious value in Vista/Imagine.

Now for the questions:
What is the difference between Vista and Vista-Pro??

I still have problems with the snapshot command in the stage editor; it doesn't
do anything at all when I use it. Anyone know how to use it?

Is it possible to get an iff-brush to repeat itself over an object the way it
is possible to do in Dpaint? This would be nice for tile textures etc.

And finally a 'hint':
It is possible to create mirror images of objects and cycles by setting the
size values in the action editor to negative values!

Helge
---
Helge E. Rasmussen  .  PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00  .  E-mail:  [e-mail]
Compel A/S          .  FAX   + 45 31 37 06 44  .
Copenhagen, Denmark

##

Subject: Re: Corrupt Imagine1.0: A Status Report.
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 1991 20:26:45 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

[e-mail] writes:

[stuff deleted]
>It worked fine UNTIL it finished rendering.  At the point where the menu bar
>usually shows "cleaning up" (right after it finishes the rendering) the
>machine CRASHED, with the same STUPID CPU trap error message 8000 0003!

That happened to me about 10times in the beginning under 1.3. I just
re-rendered and it would work next time. Then it stopped happening all
together. (kind of like that new 1950 monitor that jitters away and then
3 days later it stops...will it come back??)

>AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Ya,eh!

>sure it is okay.  Unless someone out there has another suggestion, I am
>going to send the disk back to Impulse.

Phone them first.


>Thanks again for all your help.

>Scott Sutherland
>[e-mail]
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: metal attributes by M. Halvorsen
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 91 09:11:23 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> It seems that after all this time the message on how to make Chrome, Gold
> Silver, Brass and other attributes that have a real world quality, has gone
> either unoticed or we have done a poor job of telling you how.
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I resemble that remark. :-)

> For GOLD.
> I make the object color Red 205, Green 205 and Blue 80.
> Refelctive settings are Red 180, Green 160 and Blue 125
> I use hardness at 255 and specular 255 on all guns Red Green and Blue.

As I had mentioned before, for metals, it is best to make your specular
color close to your surface color. 255 on all guns will yield the
characteristic "plastic look" that standard Phong shading is known for.
The reflectivity helps but it still doesn't look like metal. For this
case, specular R = 255, G = 255, B = 160 should yield more realistic
results. This is based on the actual behavior and physical properties
of metalic materials.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

##

Subject: Re: Corrupt Imagine1.0: A Status Report.
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 91 07:22:30 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Jan 31,  8:26pm, Stephen Menzies wrote:
} Subject: Re: Corrupt Imagine1.0: A Status Report.
}
} [e-mail] writes:
}
} [stuff deleted]
} >It worked fine UNTIL it finished rendering.  At the point where the menu bar
} >usually shows "cleaning up" (right after it finishes the rendering) the
} >machine CRASHED, with the same STUPID CPU trap error message 8000 0003!
}
} That happened to me about 10times in the beginning under 1.3. I just
} re-rendered and it would work next time. Then it stopped happening all
} together. (kind of like that new 1950 monitor that jitters away and then
} 3 days later it stops...will it come back??)
}
} >Scott Sutherland
} >[e-mail]
} --
} Stephen Menzies
} Email: [e-mail]
}
}-- End of excerpt from Stephen Menzies

Funny you should mention that....  My version 1.0 would guru many many times
when I first started using it.  It wouldn't even render rgbn stills (it
would only do ilbm).  Then, all of a sudden, everything started working.
It was if Imagine wasn't used to my machine yet, and it had to mend itself.
I know that sounds strange, and I did reconfigure a few things in my
startup (for a while it wouldn't run under anything but WorkBench), but now
it's working okay.

who knows?

--Ed Chadez



--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: metal attributes by M. Halvorsen
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 91 07:28:37 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 1,  9:11am, Mark Thompson wrote:
} Subject: Re: metal attributes by M. Halvorsen
}
} > It seems that after all this time the message on how to make Chrome, Gold
} > Silver, Brass and other attributes that have a real world quality, has gone
} > either unoticed or we have done a poor job of telling you how.
}                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
} I resemble that remark. :-)
}
} > For GOLD.
} > I make the object color Red 205, Green 205 and Blue 80.
} > Refelctive settings are Red 180, Green 160 and Blue 125
} > I use hardness at 255 and specular 255 on all guns Red Green and Blue.
}
} As I had mentioned before, for metals, it is best to make your specular
} color close to your surface color. 255 on all guns will yield the
} characteristic "plastic look" that standard Phong shading is known for.
} The reflectivity helps but it still doesn't look like metal. For this
} case, specular R = 255, G = 255, B = 160 should yield more realistic
} results. This is based on the actual behavior and physical properties
} of metalic materials.
}
}-- End of excerpt from Mark Thompson

Yes, but don't metal objects have shiny "hotspots" that sparkel white
highlights?  If you make hardness 255 and specular all white, won't you
have tiny sparkels?  I agree on the plastic look, but I read that if you
use less dithering you may reduce the "plastic look."

I haven't played whith this yet, so I may be way off here.

--Ed Chadez


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: Wdb2 and Imagine questions
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 1991 07:06:44 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

[e-mail] (Helge Egelund Rasmussen) writes:

>I still have problems with the snapshot command in the stage editor; it doesn't
>do anything at all when I use it. Anyone know how to use it?

I have only found one way "snapshot" works in the stage editor. It allows
you to save a "cycled object" in any of positions (same as in the cycle
editor).

>Is it possible to get an iff-brush to repeat itself over an object the way it
>is possible to do in Dpaint? This would be nice for tile textures etc.

Not really. You could apply upto 4 copies of the brush in attributes but
the best way would be to make the repeating brush in DPaint first. I think
the ground plane still offers repeating brushes though (like TS did).

>Helge
>---
>Helge E. Rasmussen  .  PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00  .  E-mail:  [e-mail]
>Compel A/S          .  FAX   + 45 31 37 06 44  .
>Copenhagen, Denmark
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: Imagine TurboSilver
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 91 08:55:45 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 2,  1:32am, david r watters wrote:
} Subject: Imagine TurboSilver
}
}
} No matter how much people complain, I still have no problem doing wonderful
} things with these two programs!
}
} Hope this gets me on the mailing list! :-)
}
} David
} [e-mail]
}
}-- End of excerpt from david r watters


David is right.  I know there are several little things we all wish
Imagine did, or outlined clearer in the instructions, but compared to
comparable products such as sculpt4d, Imagine is out in front.  I guess it
comes down to where you want your money to go--into a 1,000 page manual
with a video tape, or into the actual product itself.

Dave, thanks for reminding me why I own TS and Imagine and not the other
rendering software.  It has nothing to do with the manual or the frills
that come with it.

--Ed Chadez

--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: snapshot
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 91 07:27:15 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

Greetings!

This morning I found out what snapshot is used for, and since there have
been several questions posted, and a couple of answers that didn't jive, I
thought I owed it to the Group to let them in on what I found.

>From the stage editor, assume you have an object that has the effect of
explode.  Goto the last frame of the animation (again, assuming that this
is a x-frame length animation where explode runs from frame 1 to frame x).

You will see the object is in pieces according to your description of
explode.  Select the object (eg, place the cross-hairs over the object's
axis origin and click).  Select snapshot.  You will then be presented with
a file requestor for an object file.  Type in object's_name.exploded.

Now go into detail editor and load object's_name.exploded.  You will then
load the "exploded" version of the object.

Immeaditly, this will server me with one good use--using f/x to modify an
object and then saving the object frame by frame and loading it into TS
for faster rendering.  But I realize that not many out there need that
sort of flexability.  Naturally, I drug your through the f/x example as
immeadite way of showing you what snapshot did.  It will save any object
in any frame.  This may be needed if you morph one object to another and
want to save what it looks like in, say, frame 5 out of a 10 frame
animation.  I can see that snapshot is a great tool, but its usefulness
right now escapes me (with the exception of my TS use).

PLEASE try this, and let me+the Group know what you've found.  If you're
using another rendering package and have the abality to interchange
objects, you could use snapshot to utilize Imagine's f/x stuff and
morphing in your own paint package!

--Ed Chadez

ps-any new word on Imagine 2.0?  I'm still holding my breath.

--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: MAJOR Cycle Editor Problems: HELP!!
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 91 17:27:05 EST
From: [e-mail]

    I am working on an animation in which I plan to make EXTENSIVE use
of the Cycle editor, but my first attempts have led to frustration (of course
the manual was of no help ;^).  I have created a biped figure using over
29 parts (various joints, limbs, and other body parts) using SKIN, SPIN, and
other tools in the Detail Editor.  I have opted to keep each part separate for
maximum flexibility in movement and to have control over the fine details of
the TEXTURE of each part.  I have ALL of the parts in PERFECT proportion in
the DETAIL Editor and I have rendered the entire object.  It looks EXACTLY
the way I want it to.  Now, I decided to put this object, one piece at a time,
into the CYCLE editor to make a cycle object out of my biped.  This is where the
trouble starts.  My FIRST attempt was to add the individual diamonds that make
up the pieces of a cycle object in proportion to the part of my character that
will be assigned to them.  Therefore the head was 3 units, the neck 1.5 units,
the torso 4 units, and so on.  I also wanted the central axis of the cycle
object to be located at approximately the waist.

    I added all the 29 pieces in proper proportions to the cycle object and
then assigned each its appropriate piece.  DISASTER.  ALL the pieces that
were above the waist were upside down (Apparently it makes a difference which
way you drag a diamond to add it to the work surface.  This was easy enough
to fix (I just had to CONCEDE the point of putting the main axis at the waist
and move it to the head, but I can live with that).  My MAIN problem was that
the relative sizes of the assigned objects in the Perspective window of the
cycle editor did not match the relative sizes of the diamonds that made up
the object.  Just as an example, I made the HEAD 3 units (grid set to 20)
tall and the UPPER LEG 4 Units long (since the upper leg of my biped is ~
4/3 the height of the head).  Well, when I assigned the objects to their
respective diamonds, the head was 10 times larger than the upper leg.  In order
to make the head proportionally correct in the perspective window of  the
cycle editor, I had to make it 1/3 of a unit tall.  While this makes the
perspective view work, the DIAMOND stick figure looks all out of proportion,
and it is this stick figure that I have to maneuver to make animations.

I also found out that the orientation of the axis (with respect to the world
axes) for each object to be assigned is critical.  Some of the objects I
assigned to diamonds in the cycle editor were not oriented correctly, so I
went back to the detail editor and set their axes to be aligned with the world
axes.

The FINAL problem (so far) that I encountered was the relative positions
of objects within my figure.  I had the objects (in the detail editor) set
up so that they were physically oriented correctly (the waist and the pelvis
overlap slightly, so that the pelvis can appear to pivot about the waist).
When I loaded these objects into the cycle editor, they no longer were touching.


My conclusions from all of this are that 1) the orientation of the axis of an
object to be assigned to part of a cycle object is critical, 2) the relative
positions of the axes of two objects that are to be next to one another in
a cycle object is important, and 3) apparently the size of an object as it is
saved interacts with the "auto-scaling" feature mentioned in the reference
manual (P. 46-7:  Imagine auto-scales the object according to the size of
the segment (diamond)).


I tried to solve some of these problems by moving axes around (this DID work
to some extent but appears to be much trial and error). I also thought that,
if the auto-scale interacts with the actual object size, then, since all of
my object sizes are already correct, I could make my figure out of segments
that were all of the same size and everything would be okay.  NO DICE.



Can anyone offer some sound advice as to how I can put my 29 piece biped into
a cycle object and avoid all this hassle?  I noticed that the example in the
Tutorial manual uses the same physical object for all its pieces.  In this
case, a segment twice as large as another will cause the assigned object to be
twice as large (they used a VERY simple example), but I cannot seem to get this
to work for me.  I even tried to go the the detail editor and scale the head
down to be the same size as the pelvis (and I scaled the upper leg as well)
and then use different sized segments, but this did NOT work.  Any help would
be appreciated.  I'd hate to have the many hours I put into my biped go
to waste.


BTW, I did find out (the HARD way) that you cannot assign a SPHERE (the non-
primative one) to a cycle object segment.



Thanks

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: MAJOR Cycle Editor Problems: HELP!!
Date: 4 Feb 91 12:03:19 MET (Mon)
From: [e-mail] (Helge Egelund Rasmussen)

Scott Sutherland ([e-mail]) wrote:

>    I am working on an animation in which I plan to make EXTENSIVE use
>of the Cycle editor, but my first attempts have led to frustration (of course
>the manual was of no help ;^).
[And a lot more about cycle editor problems...]

A very good but undocumented feature in the cycle editor is that it is
possible to load detail editor objects into it.

Group your objects together in the detail editor and save it.
Then enter the cycle editor and load this object and - hey presto - you have
a cycle object in the right proportions and all!!
This is MUCH more easy than creating the cycle directly in the cycle editor!!!

It is important to group the objects together in the right order, and the
placements of the axis in the different subobjects has to be right too.
A little experimentation should make this clear.

I've posted some hints on how to do this a few weeks ago, I could repost it
(or mail it to you) if you are interested.

Helge
---
Helge E. Rasmussen  .  PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00  .  E-mail:  [e-mail]
Compel A/S          .  FAX   + 45 31 37 06 44  .
Copenhagen, Denmark

##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 1991 10:45:37 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

[e-mail] (Ed Chadez) writes:

>Greetings!

>This morning I found out what snapshot is used for, and since there have
>been several questions posted, and a couple of answers that didn't jive, I
>thought I owed it to the Group to let them in on what I found.

    I had one of those answers that didn't jive and i'm glad you
pointed it out. I just went back (after your message) and gave it a
try again. Well, it worked but oddly enough, after selecting the object
I had to pick "snapshot" several times before I got the requester (once
6 times!). Hence the reason I once said it worked on "morphed" objects,
then replied again with a retraction claiming it worked only on cycled
objects. (Funny, this is the only menu item that doesn't *pop* for me).
Thanks again.

>--Ed Chadez


>--
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: MAJOR Cycle Editor Problems: HELP!!
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 91 13:35:25 EST
From: [e-mail]

Helge E. Rasmussen writes:

>Group your objects together in the detail editor and save it.
>Then enter the cycle editor and load this object and - hey presto - you have
>a cycle object in the right proportions and all!!
>This is MUCH more easy than creating the cycle directly in the cycle editor!!!

Thanks for the suggestion!!

One quick question.  If I use your suggestion to load a Grouped set of objects
from the detail editor into the cycle editor, can I manipulate the individual
objects in the group, or do they all get assigned to the same diamond segment?
In other words, let's say I have a leg made up of 6 pieces (upper leg joint,
upper leg, knee, lower leg, ankle, and foot).  If I group these into the
detail editor and load them into the cycle editor, can I bend the leg at the
knee?  This is crucial to my animation.  BTW, I FINALLY figured out how to
alleviate my problem (much trial and error and I still do not know EXACTLY what
is going on).  Apparently the cycle editor looks at the AXIS lengths of an
object assigned to a segment to determine how "big" it is (of course it is
also proportional to the segment size).  So, for example, if I have an upper
leg segment and a knee segment in the cycle editor, with the upper leg's axis
at its top and the knee's axis at its center, (let the leg be, say 100 units
tall and the knee be 10 units in radius (a sphere), an the segments are at
20 unit boundaries, then the knee will be located 20 units PLUS 10 units (it's
SIZE) below the bottom of the knee's axis (in other words, INSIDE the upper
leg).  Well, there's more to it than that, but you get the idea.

I corrected most of my problems by simply going into the detail editor and
making my axes lengths for each object the same SIZE as the bounding box you
see in the SCALE command.  Then, when I create a cycle object, the upper leg
segment can be made 4-5 times the size of the knee segment, and the proportions
in the PERSPECTIVE view are also correct.  This is what I wanted.  I wanted
the segmented (diamonds) cycle object to "look" like my final biped (i.e. the
head segment is larger than the neck, and the wrists and ankles are the
smallest).  Thus, when I go to create the key frames of a cycle, I can look
at the cycle object and it looks proportionally correct.  I also wanted it to
look proportionally correct in the Perspective window.  By changing the axes
sizes, I can do all of this.  And I can solve my final problems (having knees
inside of leg parts) by judicious placement of the axes within each object.

It should take me ~1-2 hours to get it just right, and then I ANIMATE.  I AM
STILL very interested in this "loading detail editor grouped objects into
the cycle editor" idea, so please send me more info when you have the time.


Thanks,

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: DCTV
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 91 15:07:40 -0500
From: [e-mail]

I just went and bought a DCTV at our local very good Amiga store, and I'm
not sorry I did it. The editor that comes with it is very mature in the sense
of not crashing and having lots of features - which is quite surprising in
the very first release.

DCTV is a hardware module which sits between the RGB plug of the Amiga and of
the terminal. Under normal circumstances it is just a pass-through. But if the
topmost raster of the display has a key-pattern present, it turns on and
uses the output of hires output to encode NTSC color, which is then decoded
by the DCTV module. It generates composite video output, and it really looks
fine. It truly has 24-bit color output capability.

It also works just fine with Imagine. If you generate an ILBM-24 image,
it can be loaded directly into the DCTV Paint program, which will convert it
to DCTV format. (You can do the same with ILBM-12, but it is pretty pointless.)
Displayed in this way, the image is much nicer looking than anything which
can be seen with any of the standard Amiga RGB display modes. Particularly,
there aren't any contours on shaded objects, just nice clean fades from dark to
light. There also aren't any dither artifacts - DCTV doesn't need to dither.

The only difficulty is the price: Counting sales tax, mine set me back over
$600 (yowch!).

If you've got DPAINT-III, you can even take multiple frames generated by
Imagine, feed them through DCTV-Paint for format conversion, then generate
a standard ANIM file which can be displayed with "play" - a player program
which comes on the DPAINT-III release disk. Of course, for full-screen (even
in non-interlace) animations, the frame-rate isn't damned high - maybe 2 frames
a second if you're lucky if you've got a stock Amiga, as I have. I'd be
really interested in knowing how much faster it is when running on one of the
massive accelerator boards some of you guys have.

      All in all a nice device, especially considering that it also has a
built-in digitizer which I've been using to digitize pictures from a laser-disc
player.

Anyone else got one? Any hints or secrets yet? I'm still doing some
experimenting to see whether we should use unusual height/width/aspect-ratio
values when generating an ILBM-24 specifically for DCTV, or whether it isn't
necessary. (Right now, I'm leaning toward the latter.)

##

Subject: Re: List
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 91 12:17:11 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

My Mail Deamon was down.  I rebooted my machine and I'm finally getting my
mail now.  Thanks!
--Ed.

--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: Wdb2 and Imagine questions
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 91 12:39:33 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 2,  7:06am, Stephen Menzies wrote:
} Subject: Re: Wdb2 and Imagine questions
}
} >Is it possible to get an iff-brush to repeat itself over an object the way it
} >is possible to do in Dpaint? This would be nice for tile textures etc.
}
} Not really. You could apply upto 4 copies of the brush in attributes but
} the best way would be to make the repeating brush in DPaint first. I think
} the ground plane still offers repeating brushes though (like TS did).
}
} Stephen Menzies
} Email: [e-mail]
}
}-- End of excerpt from Stephen Menzies

Could you tell me how you got a brush to repeat itself on a ground.  I
don't recall reading this in the TS manual.


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 91 12:58:00 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 4, 10:45am, Stephen Menzies wrote:
} Subject: Re: snapshot
}
}     I had one of those answers that didn't jive and i'm glad you
} pointed it out. I just went back (after your message) and gave it a
} try again. Well, it worked but oddly enough, after selecting the object
} I had to pick "snapshot" several times before I got the requester (once
} 6 times!). Hence the reason I once said it worked on "morphed" objects,
} then replied again with a retraction claiming it worked only on cycled
} objects. (Funny, this is the only menu item that doesn't *pop* for me).
} Thanks again.
}
} Stephen Menzies
} Email: [e-mail]
}
}-- End of excerpt from Stephen Menzies

I've noticed something very strange among the Imagine Users, and it looks
like you've noticed it too.  It appears that Imagine doesn't work the same
way for everybody across the board.  Your problem above is just an example,
another user could never get his escape key to cancel viewing a picture,
someone else could never get Imagine installed under 2.0.  Do you think
that these issues point to problems in the actual creation of the software,
or in descrepancies (SP?) in the process that copied the original object
code to disk?

I've had problems with Imagine, but until recently, thought they were
isolated to my own system.  But now I'm begenning to wonder.  The menu
mentioned above works fine for me.


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re:  DCTV
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 91 18:32:34 -0500
From: david r watters <[e-mail]>

The great thing about DCTV and imagine is that you do NOT have to mess with
Dpaint which is the buggiest piece-o-crap.
What you do is render your imagine images, say 40 of them, in ILBM24.  You
then use DCTV to convert that mass of images into DCTV "Display" format an{
write these back to where the Imagine images were.
Now midify the rendering subproject so the images are supposed to be
IFF.  Then select the 40 cells and chose "import" so imagine things all the
images are being imported.  No uses imagine to compress an Anim5 animation
or even an Imagine animation and when played back DCTV will display an
NTSC animation at 30fps!!!! (assuming your machine is fast enough)


DCTV can be found for $39w39  $399 and I think it is worth it unless
you have a rich partner to spend the dough on SP decks and transport controllers
! :-)

Dave
[e-mail]

##

Subject: inconsistent performance
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 91 22:32:27 -0500
From: [e-mail]

> }
> }     I had one of those answers that didn't jive and i'm glad you
> } pointed it out. I just went back (after your message) and gave it a
> } try again. Well, it worked but oddly enough, after selecting the object
> } I had to pick "snapshot" several times before I got the requester (once
> } 6 times!). Hence the reason I once said it worked on "morphed" objects,
> } then replied again with a retraction claiming it worked only on cycled
> } objects. (Funny, this is the only menu item that doesn't *pop* for me).
> } Thanks again.
> }
> } Stephen Menzies
> } Email: [e-mail]
> }
> }-- End of excerpt from Stephen Menzies
>
> I've noticed something very strange among the Imagine Users, and it looks
> like you've noticed it too.  It appears that Imagine doesn't work the same
> way for everybody across the board.  Your problem above is just an example,
> another user could never get his escape key to cancel viewing a picture,
> someone else could never get Imagine installed under 2.0.  Do you think
> that these issues point to problems in the actual creation of the software,
> or in descrepancies (SP?) in the process that copied the original object
> code to disk?
>

As a software developer, may I venture a different explanation? It is often
the case with a fancy package such as this one that there are subtle
dependencies which affect the way some features work. New users may not be
aware of these dependencies.

Suppose that feature A has a non-obvious dependency on switch B. User 44 uses
feature A with switch B "on" and feature A works. User 47 uses feature A with
switch B "off", and feature A doesn't work. User 47 asks user 44 how 44 made it
work, and 44 describes what he did. 47 also describes what HE did, and it seems
to be the same. But since neither 44 nor 47 know that switch B is important,
neither of them include it in their description of what they did.

Therefore, it will seem as if they both did the same thing but got different
results, whereas in reality they did DIFFERENT things to get their different
results.

Of course, sometimes the dependency is a bug, but just as often it is what the
FAA refers to as a "cockpit error"...


##

Subject:
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 91 22:47:59 -0500
From: [e-mail]

# > (Imagine) ... generates composite video output, and it really looks
# > fine. It truly has 24-bit color output capability.
#
# Actually it does not. It uses compression to give you the false impression
# that it can output 24bit color. In fact, it cannot! The ColorBurst, Toaster,
# and Firecracker are all examples of true 24bit color.
#
# > light. There also aren't any dither artifacts - DCTV doesn't need to dither.
#
# In fact, I read somewhere that DCTV does infact use dithering to accomplish
# its 24 bit appearance, it just isn't as noticeable as in standard Amiga
# displays.

Well, not really. DCTV's paint program uses RGB for internal uses, but the DCTV
hardware itself is fundamentally analog. Instead of dealing with RGB, it uses
luma/chroma.

I've taken a good hard look at their storage format, and it is really
surprising: They're using 640*(200 or 400)*(3 or 4 bitplanes); the color
palette is REALLY surprising: With 3 bitplanes, the R value is always 7, while
G and B give you all permuntations of G=7 or 8 and B=6, 7, 8 or 9.

With 4 bitplanes, they permute the R value as either 7 or 8.

I don't think they're doing dithering, what I think they're doing is slewing:
I think that the B value is used to represent up-or-down incremental changes to
the previous luma value, and instead of an instaneous change the DCTV hardware
changes gradually; likewise I think that the G (in 3 bitplane) or R/G (in 4
bitplane) represent incremental changes in the chroma. (In most pictures, the
luma contains far more information and changes far more rapidly than the chroma
does. NTSC encodes the chroma as a relatively narrow-bandwidth subcarrier on
the baseband luma video signal.)

If in fact they are slewing (and that's what it looks like on the screen - if
you haven't seen it, you ought to) then they truly DO have the ability to
represent far more than 4096 color values. What you have is the electronic
equivalent of smearing the colors together. There isn't any obvious dithering
at all.

I'm afraid this is wandering rather wide of the subject of "Imagine". I'll try
the import-stunt and see if Imagine-anim format is faster. However, I don't
hold out much hope: Because of the way they're encoding things, compression is
useless. Two fields which look very similiar in DCTV really are radically
different in practice - at least for things captures from the laserdisk.
For things coming from Imagine itself, they probably are very equivalent.

I'll let you know.


##

Subject: Cycle editor hints
Date: 5 Feb 91 10:24:07 MET (Tue)
From: [e-mail] (Helge Egelund Rasmussen)

A lot of people seems to have missed the trick about loading detail editor
objects into the cycle editor, so I'll repeat my earlier message about this
subject:

It is possible to circumvent all the problems connected with the proper
setup of a new cycle editor object; this is done by creating the full object
in the detail editor, and then load this object into the cycle editor.

If the object is a grouped object consisting of subobjects, each subobject
will be assigned to its own segment.

It is much more easy to place the subobjects at the correct positions in
the detail editor. When you load the object into the cycle editor,
the only editing commands that you'll need to use is 'pivot' and 'twist'.
The move command will only be used to move the full object.

Here is some 'hints':

- You should NOT group alle the objects together in one go. Instead you must
  group the objects together in a lot of steps. Here is an example:
  You want to create part of a human object consisting of the following objects:
     a hand,
     a arm,
     a shoulder,
     a body
  After placing the objects at the correct locations in the detail editor
  you should create the following groupings:
  Group the arm to the hand (arm is the 'parent' object)
  Group the shoulder to the arm (shoulder is the 'parent' object)
  Group the body to the shoulder.
  If the shoulder is part of the body object, you should use an axis as the
  shoulder. Otherwise the arm would pivot around the body!


- Be sure to place the object so that it is facing in the positive Y direction.
  The stage editor expects this direction, and if you want the object to follow
  a path, then the object WILL move in the positive y direction.

- Place the axis for a object where you want a sub-object to connect
  to the object. This is necessary as the sub-object will turn around
  the axis of the object.
  Example, you want to connect a foot to a leg and then to a body:
    Be sure to be in 'pick group' mode.
    Place the axis of the foot in the toes.
    Place the axis of the leg at the bottom of it (you want the foot to
    turn about this point).
    Place the foot and the leg at the correct positions.
    Press the shift key, select the leg, select the foot and group the objects.
    Place the axis of the body at the lower part of the body (you want the leg
    to turn about this point).
    Press the shift key, select the body, select the leg and group the objects.
    Now save the object. This object can be loaded into the cycle object.

- Remember that it is the 'top' object of the group that will follow a path in
  the stage editor. Because of this, you can't move the 'top' object relative
  to the path, so it would be a stupid idea to use a real object as the 'top'
  object: The solution is to create an axis and group the final object to
  this before you save it.
  Example:
    When you make an object walk, the body is the fixpoint, and the legs move.
    However, if you want the man object to bend over, it is the legs that are
    the fixpoint, and the body that move.

Hope this helps,

Helge
---
Helge E. Rasmussen  .  PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00  .  E-mail:  [e-mail]
Compel A/S          .  FAX   + 45 31 37 06 44  .
Copenhagen, Denmark

##

Subject: Cycle Editor Stuff
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 91 19:43:31 EST
From: [e-mail]

    I am glad to see the CYCLE EDITOR info.  Thanks.  I tried it once
but I had all my objects grouped to one.  You can probably guess the result.

NOW, since I created MY CYCLE object the HARD way (one segment at a time), I
have run into a problem.  I created a HUMAN-like object.  From my previous
trial and error with the CYCLE Editor, I found that I needed to PULL each
segment of my HUMAN in the same direction (unless I wanted to invert the axes
of some of the parts).  Well, I decided NOT to do this, so I started with
the HEAD and worked down.  As you probably know, the CYCLE OBJECT's axis,
the one that follows along a path for instance, for my object is in the
head.  Not a real problem, BUT I want it to be in the WAIST area.  My question
is:  Now that I have already gone to the trouble of making this cycle object
and getting everything JUST right, IS IT POSSIBLE to RE-POSITION the cycle
object's axis???  If so, how?

Believe me, from now on I'll do all this stuff in the DETAIL editor!!!  However,
I'd like to see if I cannot correct the small 'problem' above without starting
from scratch.  Suggestions?

Thanks,

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: repeating brushes
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 91 15:22:18 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 2,  7:06am, Stephen Menzies wrote:
} Subject: Re: Wdb2 and Imagine questions
}
} I think the ground plane still offers repeating brushes though (like TS did).
}
} Stephen Menzies
} Email: [e-mail]
}
}-- End of excerpt from Stephen Menzies

Wait a minute.  Did Stephen say what I thought he did?  I didn't know
ground objects COULD have brushes applied to them, let alone repeating
ones, either in TS or Imagine.

Does anybody know if this is true??  And if so, how would the
texture axis be positioned (in Imagine).

--Edward Chadez

--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: repeating brushes
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 91 21:52:29 -0500
From: Udo K Schuermann <[e-mail]>

> On Feb 2,  7:06am, Stephen Menzies wrote:
>}
>} I think the ground plane still offers repeating brushes though (like TS did).
>}
>} Stephen Menzies
>} Email: [e-mail]
>
> Wait a minute.  Did Stephen say what I thought he did?  I didn't know
> ground objects COULD have brushes applied to them, let alone repeating
> ones, either in TS or Imagine.
>
> --Edward Chadez

I know for a fact that TS mapped an IFF brush repetitively onto a
ground plane.  I just tried the same thing with Imagine and got
    a) only a single picture (no tiled repeats)
    b) the picture is muddled into total garbage (swirls of the
       lightbrown background color and black) even though I took
       care to set dither to 0.
    c) <sniff!> :-(
                 ___
 ._.  Udo Schuermann        / | \    "Fighting for Peace is like
 ( )  [e-mail]    \/|\/     Fucking for Virginity."
                 ~~~

##

Subject: Re: Sound and iconification
Date: 7 Feb 91 14:15:14 MET (Thu)
From: [e-mail] (Helge Egelund Rasmussen)

Mike ([e-mail]) wrote:

>..does anyone know of a way of adding sound to an imagine format
>animation or of making the final animation run with the simple click
>of an icon?..what is the best tool for accomplishing these same
>tricks with op code 5 animations?..

I am very interested in this too, it would be nice to be able to add
sounds to an animation (steps, thunder etc).
What I really would like to have is the possibility to tell the system that
I want a given soundeffect to be played at frame number x, and another at frame
no. y and z etc.
I think that 'The Director' can do something like this..
Anyone know more?

Helge
---
Helge E. Rasmussen  .  PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00  .  E-mail:  [e-mail]
Compel A/S          .  FAX   + 45 31 37 06 44  .
Copenhagen, Denmark

##

Subject: Re: repeating brushes
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 07:30:42 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 6,  9:52pm, Udo K Schuermann wrote:
} Subject: Re: repeating brushes
}
} I know for a fact that TS mapped an IFF brush repetitively onto a
} ground plane.  I just tried the same thing with Imagine and got
}     a) only a single picture (no tiled repeats)
}     b) the picture is muddled into total garbage (swirls of the
}        lightbrown background color and black) even though I took
}        care to set dither to 0.
}     c) <sniff!> :-(

Okay, that's what I wanted to heard.  However, what is the procedure for
pasting a brush onto the ground (eg, what is the position of the wrap axis
in TS)??

It's a shame that this feature doesn't seem to be pulled over to Imagine.
I think Impulse may have a whole lot of stuff they're going to toss to us
in the (assumed) 2.0 release, including things that were developed in TS
(ie, Fog/Haze, bright surfaces, tiled brush mapping, lights attached to
objects, stereo-vision (hence TS-SV), and so on).

Until then, remember that TS can STILL BE USED on your systems to perform
the effects Imagine didn't inherit.  If you want to use Special Effects
like explode and ripple and grow, or want to have morphing, you can save
the object frame by frame using snapshot in the stage editor.  And TS uses
much less memory (less than half) than Imagine does, so you can use TS for
those really large projects if you're running out of memory.  The only
disadvantage is that the special brush effects (bump mapping, transparancy,
and so on) won't work.

--Ed Chadez


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: Sound and iconification
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 10:41:38 CST
From: [e-mail] (Jeff W. Brogden)

>
> >of an icon?..what is the best tool for accomplishing these same
> >tricks with op code 5 animations?..
>
> I am very interested in this too, it would be nice to be able to add
> sounds to an animation (steps, thunder etc).
> What I really would like to have is the possibility to tell the system that
> I want a given soundeffect to be played at frame number x, and another at frame
> no. y and z etc.
> I think that 'The Director' can do something like this..
> Anyone know more?
>

AmigaVision has the ability to play sounds on certain frames of an ANIMopt5
animation.  I don't have AV with me, but there's some function called
'anim()' or somesuch.  You can use it to build a condition like:
    anim() == 10    (systax is probably way off)

that will eval to true when the anim hits the 10th frame.

I've used this to add a simple bell to an anim I did with Animagic, and
it worked pretty well.  Since Imagine supports ANIMopt5 (haven't tried it yet)
then you should be able to do the above.

This, however defeats the nice looping, etc.. that TS and Imagine offered
with their script approach.

===============================================================================
Jeff Brogden                    | Kansas State University
Internet: [e-mail]              | Manhattan, KS.  66506
BITNET: jwb@ksuvm                               | Office phone: [phone]
UUCP: {rutgers,texbell,atanasoff}!ksuvax1!jwb    | Home phone: [phone]
===============================================================================

##

Subject: glass
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 12:43:27 EST
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Goroway)

Any Sculpt-4d veterans out there?  Remember the difference between glass1
and glass2?

Glass1 didn't do any refraction...In other words it made for a great
glass hemisphere over a futuristic city.

Is there any way to accomplish this in Imagine?  I am guessing that
if I make my glass have an index of refraction of 1.0 (same as air) that
it might work.  Has anyone tried this?

-Thanks
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
| Worcester Polytechnic Institute   | "It happens sometimes, people just     |
| [e-mail]                  |   explode, natural causes."-Repo Man   |
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=


##

Subject: Re: glass
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 10:32:42 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 7, 12:43pm, Kevin Goroway wrote:
} Subject: glass
}
}
} Any Sculpt-4d veterans out there?  Remember the difference between glass1
} and glass2?
}
} Glass1 didn't do any refraction...In other words it made for a great
} glass hemisphere over a futuristic city.
}
} Is there any way to accomplish this in Imagine?  I am guessing that
} if I make my glass have an index of refraction of 1.0 (same as air) that
} it might work.  Has anyone tried this?
}
}-- End of excerpt from Kevin Goroway

I am speaking only of my experience with TurboSilver, but to your answer,
yes, you can do that.  If you set the refraction to any value other than
1.0, you'll get some sort of refraction.  Setting refraction to 1.0 makes
the "glass" clear and unaltered.  You could add specular and hardness to
make the glass have a sparkle, and you may want set filter to something
less that 255 on all guns (consult a previous message about glass).

I have learned, however, that just because TS did something, it is NEVER
safe to assume you'll get simular results with Imagine.

As as far as a sculpt veteran, I had sculpt3d before I owned TS and I
didn't upgrade to 4d because I was REALLY pleased with TS.  If you have
interchange, you could build objects in sculpt and import them into TS.
This was all before Imagine, of course.

Hope this works for all of you.  If not, let us know....


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: glass
Date:    Thu, 7 Feb 91 14:35 EST
From: "Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]>

     Yep... that'll do it: also if you set it to a value near 1.0 you'll get
just a hint of refraction but it'll still look like a dome.  I used this in
scanline mode and it looked great!  So a low index of refraction = Glass1

/---------------------------------------------------------------------\
| -Doug  Bischoff- |    *** ***    ====--\         | "I'm not God...  |
| -DEB110 @ PSUVM- |   *  ***  *     ==|<>\___     |    I was just    |
| -The Black Ring- |    *** ***        |______\    |       misquoted!"|
| --- "Wheels" --- |      ***           O   O      |   -Dave Lister   |
| Corwyn Blakwolfe |     T.R.I.     -------------  |    RED DWARF     |
\---- [e-mail]  D.BISCHOFF on GEnie  THIRDMAN on PAN -----/

##

Subject: Interchange?
Date:    Thu, 7 Feb 91 14:39 EST
From: "Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]>

     I have an old version of interchange that I want to use to convert sculpt
4D objects to use in Imagine... unfortunately it converts them to a format of
TS that Imagine doesn't recognize.  I also don't own TS any version.  Anybody
have any ideas?  There are some things that are just easier to do in Sculpt
than in Imagine (not many, but a few, like sizing the middle ring of a 3 ring
cylinder to make a top with flat top and bottom, etc.).

/---------------------------------------------------------------------\
| -Doug  Bischoff- |    *** ***    ====--\         | "I'm not God...  |
| -DEB110 @ PSUVM- |   *  ***  *     ==|<>\___     |    I was just    |
| -The Black Ring- |    *** ***        |______\    |       misquoted!"|
| --- "Wheels" --- |      ***           O   O      |   -Dave Lister   |
| Corwyn Blakwolfe |     T.R.I.     -------------  |    RED DWARF     |
\---- [e-mail]  D.BISCHOFF on GEnie  THIRDMAN on PAN -----/

##

Subject: Re: Interchange?
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 11:47:08 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 7,  2:39pm, "Doug Bischoff" wrote:
} Subject: Interchange?
}
}      I have an old version of interchange that I want to use to convert sculpt
} 4D objects to use in Imagine... unfortunately it converts them to a format of
} TS that Imagine doesn't recognize.  I also don't own TS any version.  Anybody
} have any ideas?  There are some things that are just easier to do in Sculpt
} than in Imagine (not many, but a few, like sizing the middle ring of a 3 ring
} cylinder to make a top with flat top and bottom, etc.).
}
}-- End of excerpt from "Doug Bischoff"

Yes.  I own the turbo silver 3.0 module of Interchange and the future
design disk (antic software).  I use interchange to convert objects to TS
format and then load then DIRECTLY into Imagine.  If you're going to do
this, you may want to write me first for a tip on doing it.

Your problem may be that the objects that your version of interchange
creates may be only version 2.0 of TS.  I believe you can get the 3.0
module from Go Amigo! (who advertises in AmigaWorld) for only $15 or so.
Maybe more, you'll have to check.

-Ed Chadez


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: snapshot
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 1991 18:31:01 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

[e-mail] (Ed Chadez) writes:

>On Feb 4, 10:45am, Stephen Menzies wrote:
>} Subject: Re: snapshot
>}
[stuff deleted]
>} objects. (Funny, this is the only menu item that doesn't *pop* for me).
>} Thanks again.

>I've noticed something very strange among the Imagine Users, and it looks
>like you've noticed it too.  It appears that Imagine doesn't work the same
>way for everybody across the board.  Your problem above is just an example,
>another user could never get his escape key to cancel viewing a picture,
>someone else could never get Imagine installed under 2.0.  Do you think
>that these issues point to problems in the actual creation of the software,
>or in descrepancies (SP?) in the process that copied the original object
>code to disk?

I don't know the answer but i'm very happy you told me it does work. Now
I pick my object and go to "snapshot" several times knowing it will pop
up eventually.


>--
>------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
>  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
>\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
>--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

cya -stephen
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Sound in Imagine Files
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 15:09:42 EST
From: [e-mail]

Jeffe Brogden states that AmigaVision can add sounds to ANIM style formats,
BUT that by saving Imagine animations in this form you lose the looping
features and other nice things in the Imagine format.  Well, I think that
the Progressive Peripherals product Animation Station can give this back to
you.  I do NOT own it (YET ;^), but it looks like an extremely powerful
program for doing all sorts of manipulations of ANIM format animations.  Plus
you can use Animation:Multiplane (HASH), AniMagic (OXXI), and many other
programs on ANIM format animations, so I think that, in the long run, it is
more flexible than the Imagine proprietary format.

Anyone have experience with Animation Station?  Comments?

Also, Lights!Camera!Action will let you key sounds to animations (also ANIM
format) as well as using SMUS format songs, stills, transitions, and much
more.  Check it out.

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Corrupt Imagine 1.0 Problem: SOLVED!!!
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 15:20:00 EST
From: [e-mail]

    Well, I finally solved the problem with my corrupt version of Imagine
1.0.  When I last spoke of this saga, I mentioned that the version of lharc
on my 1.0 disk might be corrupt, so I replaced it with an ftp'd version of
lharc.  This allowed me to uncompress 1.0 under AmigaDos2.0, I could run
the program, but when it got to the 'cleanup' message after rendering an image,
my machine crashed.  Well, a friend gave me a copy of a program called
ZERO VIRUS.  It is nice because it will examine individual files for viruses.
Well, it found the XENO virus (reported to me by VirusX at all my crashes with
Imagine1.0) on almost EVERY file on my Imagine 1.0 disk (not surprising, since
the lharc program had it, so it must have passed it on to everything it
archived except the Imagine.pic and the .info files!!).  ZERO VIRUS disabled
the XENO virus in every file, so I ran Imagine 1.0 under OS 2.0, loaded some
objects, and rendered.  NO problems.  ;^)))))


BTW, is the XENO virus 2.0 specific?  Anyone know why it would cause my A3000
to crash JUST under 2.0 but NOT under 1.3.2???  Odd!!  (Things that make you
say (index finger pointed at side of forehead) Hmmmmmmm????? A.H.)

Well, thanks for all the help and letting me sound off a couple of times.
My first full-fledged Imagine animation looks GREAT (it is JUST a walking
mannequin (29 body parts), but it is REAL nice).  I rendered in LACE/HAM/
OVERSCAN and it took 2:30 per frame in SCANLINE mode.  AMAZING!!  The full
screen sized mannequin animation (50 frames) is just over 1.4 Megs (but lharc
compressed it to 550K!).  If there is interest, I'll ftp it to ab20.

Later,

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: repeating brushes(again)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 1991 21:04:03 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

I went back and messed around alittle more with brush and texture
mapping on the ground plane in Imagine.
    You can map on the ground plane but not (as far as I can see)
a repeating "brush". If you don't get a successful result it's likely
you're get a "digital bounce" and you should move your mapping axis
alittle on the +Z-axis. Turn off phong shading. You could map a maximum
of 4 brushes on the plane only.
    The only way to get something repeating is to solid texture
map.
    I had suggested it might be possible to get 2 envioronment maps
in Imagine , one from the groundplane, one from Globals , in Scanline
Mode. This does work, however you can not make the ground disappear
at the same time by making it reflective because (I wasn't thinking
there, thats for sure) it will reflect the global map also. The solution
is to not have the ground plane in the camera view.
    Finally, I had said that with a black sky , a mapped plane, (and
no global map), full reflectivity on that (ground) plane, and some
reflectivity given to the object the result would be an environment mapped
object (from the ground plane) and an invisible ground plane . Well that
does work in TS but in Imagine I still can see artifacts on the ground
plane from it's map. (Btw, I'm still talking Scanline mode, here).
    I do have a problem with the environment mapping in Imagine
whether from Globals or ground plane. It's too "bright" and kills
the phong shading. The only thing that suggests your object is 3D is
the "wrap" of the map ad the specular hit.
    In addition to this, I can't say i like the phong shading in Imagine as much as I did in TS. It cuts to fast from light to dark and doesn't seem
to take in "secondary" light from other surfaces.

--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: Wdb2 and Imagine questions
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 1991 18:24:19 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

[e-mail] (Ed Chadez) writes:

>On Feb 2,  7:06am, Stephen Menzies wrote:
>} Subject: Re: Wdb2 and Imagine questions
>}
>} >Is it possible to get an iff-brush to repeat itself over an object the way it
>} >is possible to do in Dpaint? This would be nice for tile textures etc.
>}
>} Not really. You could apply upto 4 copies of the brush in attributes but
>} the best way would be to make the repeating brush in DPaint first. I think
>} the ground plane still offers repeating brushes though (like TS did).
>}
>} Stephen Menzies
>} Email: [e-mail]
>}
>}-- End of excerpt from Stephen Menzies

>Could you tell me how you got a brush to repeat itself on a ground.  I
>don't recall reading this in the TS manual.

Sure. The ground plane in TS is (always) infinite, but the axis can
be scaled on the X,Y. The image that is assigned to the ground plane
will be the same size as the X and Y and will checkerboard out from
there. In TS all you have to do is assign the map, you don't have
to add a secondary mapping axis. I haven't tried this in Imagine yet
and don't know whether it follows the same rules.
    Remember, that inn imagine (as well as TS), if your object
has some reflectivity assigned to it, and your ground plane has a
map assigned to it, the map will be enviorment mapped (as a
reflection) to the object in Scanline AND raytrace mode. This is in
addition to the enviorment map that may be applied in Globals.  Also,
(I hope I'm remembering this right) if you have a (say), black sky with
a fully reflective but mapped ground, and a environment map assigned in
the globals, and finally an object with reflectivity, you can have a
object floating in black space with 2(!) reflections on it, all in
the fast Scanline mode.(I don't make logos but this is what it's really
great for.
    One last note: if you want your ground map to checkerboard, but
not see the checkerboarding divisions yoou must make the opposite edges
of your map, match each other ie. left and right/ top and bottom.

stephen

>--
>------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
>  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
>\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
>--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Morphed Cycle Objects, anyone?
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 17:29:53 EST
From: [e-mail]

    I asked this question directly of Helge Rasmussen, who gave us the
hint to load grouped objects directly into the CYCLE editor, but 1) there has
not been enough time for a response yet, and 2) I thought I'd ask it of all
the Imagine users out there.

Has anyone tried to MORPH Cycle objects?  Picture this (a very complex example,
of course):  A human is running along a road.  Suddenly, he MORPHS into a
panther.  (Like I said, this may be a tough one, but how about a having the
ball-to-sphere morph in the TUTORIAL manual do this while the object is
cycling (could be anything from having it grow and shrink to having it bounce
up and down)?  Personally, I'd like to see the man-to-panther one.  I may try
this someday.  If anyone has tried this, please let us know the trials and
tribulations of it all.

Scott Sutherland
Videophile and Amigaphile ;^)
[e-mail]

##

Subject: interchange
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 91 14:22:47 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

The only way I can get Interchange objects to work is to
run them through TS.  I have a call in to Syndesis to discuss
an Imagine converter.

mark

##

Subject: Re: Interchange?
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 91 17:06:24 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> Yes.  I own the turbo silver 3.0 module of Interchange and the future
> design disk (antic software).  I use interchange to convert objects to TS
> format and then load then DIRECTLY into Imagine.  If you're going to do
> this, you may want to write me first for a tip on doing it.

Have you tried doing this in the opposite direction (converting an Imagine
object to some other format)? I would very much like to create Videoscape
format objects for use in Lightwave from Imagine objects.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

##

Subject: Re: interchange
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 16:18:17 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

What version of Interchange do you have running?
and
What TS version are you converting objects to?

I have an Interchange TS module package which I convert objects from
sculpt format to TS 3.0 and I don't even bother with TS--I load them
directly into Imagine!  The only thing I have to do is add a new axis to
the object (using add axis+join to object) because the interchange object
has only an x+y axis with no z limb.

If I don't add the axis, I can't size the object.  Big Deal!  Still, the
conversion should work if you have Interchange 4.1 and the TS 3.0 module
(2.0 won't work...).

--Ed Chadez

--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: Interchange?
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 16:42:02 PST
From: [e-mail] (Glenn M. Lewis ~)

>>>>> On Thu, 07 Feb 91 17:06:24 EST, Mark Thompson <[e-mail]> said:

Mark> Have you tried doing this in the opposite direction (converting an
Mark> Imagine object to some other format)? I would very much like to
Mark> create Videoscape format objects for use in Lightwave from Imagine
Mark> objects.

Mark -

    I haven't tried this, but I think it would be quite
straight-forward to use my TTDDD package to convert Imagine objects to
Turbo Silver objects (and thus losing any properties that TS does not
understand, of course).
    It should be possible to say:
ReadTDDD Imagine.obj | WriteTDDD > Turbo.obj

    While it crunches on the files, it will print messages like "I
don't understand Sub-Chunk SuchAndSuch", which are the Imagine-specific
chunks.  (The above '|' is a pipe... I've had TTDDD users call me up and
ask me what that character is, but Usenet folk probably know about pipes
on the Amiga, right?)
    If somebody tries this out, let us know how it works.

                            -- Glenn Lewis

Mark> %~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
Mark> %       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
Mark> %  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
Mark> %       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
Mark> %      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
Mark> %                                                                       %
Mark>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[e-mail] | These are my own opinions... not Intel's



##

Subject: Re: Interchange?
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 21:11:15 -0500
From: david r watters <[e-mail]>

What is TTTDDDD?

While I have the line, is anyone having problems with altitude mapping?

David

##

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 91 22:58:51 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

Anyone out there know where I can get an IFF of the world?  I would prefer
a simple hi-res interlaced 2 color (blue and green) map.  I want to wrap
it around a sphere.  Thanks for the help.

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Subject: interchange
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 91 22:21:08 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

You are right, Ed.  I use an ARexx script to start Interchange and
it was calling the V2.0 Silver conversion instead of the V3.0 version.
It works fine now.  Don't know how my script got messed up.  Must be
the line editor I've been using lately....Splat.

mark

##

Subject: Texture match on Ground, & Axis rotation.
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 91 10:25:26 EST
From: John J. Rosner <[e-mail]>

Stephen Menzies writes:
>One last note: if you want your ground map to checkerboard, but
>not see the checkerboarding divisions yoou must make the opposite edges
>of your map, match each other ie. left and right/ top and bottom.

I get divisions because I rotate the axis of the texture map on the ground
because that's the only way I get solid checks instead of foggy dithered
ones.  Rotating the axis, in order to avoid the digital bounce, means the edges
won't match.  What am I missing?

Thanks in advance,
John Rosner


##

Subject: Morphing
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 91 11:14:55 EST
From: John J. Rosner <[e-mail]>

Scott Sutherland writes:

>Has anyone tried to MORPH Cycle objects?  Picture this (a very complex example,
>of course):  A human is running along a road.  Suddenly, he MORPHS into a
>panther.

I tried something a bit less ambitious outside the Cycle editor.  A sphere that
morphs into a torus, then the camera would go through the torus as if a gate
had opened.  First problem was in order for objects to be morphable, they have
to have the same number of points, and faces.  This is fairly easy to overcome
by getting information on the objects (right-Amiga F) which tells the number
of faces and points, then the faces may be added somewhere innocuously.  Second
problem was maybe because of the innocuous extra faces, i.e., it didn't look
like a door opening.  Even though it morphed, it looked like it was tying
itself in a knot until the last 2, of 20, frames and then it jumped into the
torus.

Later,
John Rosner


##

Subject: use of overscan with interface
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 91 15:00:18 EDT
From: [e-mail] (Doug Dyer)

  Is there a way to have imagine use overscan (not for its creations,
but the program itself)?


Thanks,
Doug

--
2B|!(2B) => ?
[e-mail]

##

Subject: import object into form editor
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 91 10:29:55 MEZ
From: [e-mail] (Thorsten Ebers)

Hello,
i have problems importing created objects with the detail editor into
the form editor.Is it not possible ? When I create a object with the forms
editor I can export to the detail ,modify it there,and import again in the
form editor.Any hints ?
Thorsten


##

Subject: Re: Texture match on Ground, & Axis rotation.
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 1991 07:46:35 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

John J. Rosner <[e-mail]> writes:

>Stephen Menzies writes:
>>One last note: if you want your ground map to checkerboard, but
>>not see the checkerboarding divisions yoou must make the opposite edges
>>of your map, match each other ie. left and right/ top and bottom.

>I get divisions because I rotate the axis of the texture map on the ground
>because that's the only way I get solid checks instead of foggy dithered
>ones.  Rotating the axis, in order to avoid the digital bounce, means the edges
>won't match.  What am I missing?

>Thanks in advance,
>John Rosner

I'm not quite sure how you're placing your mapping axis. I for instance,
rotate my axis -90 on the x-axis. This orientates the axis correctly however
it is precisely on the same z(plane) as the ground. Here, I sometimes get
a digital bounce. I then move the axis a very small amount +z. (I'm
not sure if this is the same as yours at this point). This now will map
correctly.
    You can't really checkerboard brush maps in Imagine (you can only
place 4 brush maps side by side. If you wish to place 4 maps in a
checkerboard pattern and want these maps to be seamless and make one
larger map, the edges will have to match. Left with right, top with bottom,
as though they were wrapped around a cylinder. However, it is sometimes
very dificult work trying to get anything but a very geometric brush to
match this way.
    If I've missed the point, let me know.

cya -stephen
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: Interchange?
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 1991 08:14:43 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

david r watters <[e-mail]> writes:

>What is TTTDDDD?

I'll let Glenn Lewis reply to this one.

>While I have the line, is anyone having problems with altitude mapping?
>
>David

No, I haven't had any problems, but I've had great results. I suggest:
    -don't size your y-axis (the depth of the indentation) to large
at first. Use 1,2... rather than 10,20...etc. If the size is too large
it starts to look more like a mistake in rendering rather than a bumpmap.
    - If you use flat/flat and the numbers are small (1,2..) make sure
the axis is on the same plane as the surface you are mapping.
    - Avoid hi-res maps if you have limited memory. A hi-res map will
sometimes suck upto 1.5 megs out of your system while intiallizing. A med
res map will usually use around a 1/3 of that.
    - Try to use the same map more than once in the scene in diferrent
ways rather than several diferent maps. It not more expensive this way.
    - it's suggested that there should be several levels of gray between
your high and low colors. This does give the best results in many situations
however I have got great maps that do exactly what i want using 1 pixel
wide (black) lines on a white background.
    - If you're on a flicker-free monitor (like the 1950) watch out,
'cause some of those nice rough surfaces (like the spray painted ones) are
going to go *nuts* on a standard monitor.

If you have specific questions, just ask.

cya -stephen
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: List, Objects
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 91 15:10:36 EST
From: [e-mail]

Hey! I've settled into my classes, so I FINALLY got the new
objects on-line!

Yes, thats right! About 30 more Cool-Beans objects are NOW in
the incoming/amiga/3d/Imagine directory at ab20.larc.nasa.gov!
I posted a list of what they are to this list about a week
ago. Use and abuse them as you will!

Administrivia: The screwed-up list. :-) There are 2 distinct
problems- Sometimes a piece of mail is sent to everyone about
5 times, which is very annoying; Sometimes people who post get a
message with strange "I can't deliver" messages.

The first problem isn't in the list- Unfortunately, sometimes somebody
else's mailer, or a node between their mailer and mine, gets confused
and sends 5 copies to MIT. They all get here, and the list server
does what its supposed to do- distributes every incoming letter to
everyone. S. Menzies' mailer had this problem for a while, then it
magically went away for a while, and just reappeared.
If it comes back for good, I'll probably have
to do a workaround like having the people with the funky mailers mail
me personally, (I'll get 5 copies) and I'll re-direct one copy to
the list. Hopefully, it won't stay screwed up, though.

The second problem has just cropped up, and those who don't post don't
notice it. Within the past few days, some posters have gotten mail back
from the server saying it couldn't be delivered to some people. Here's
what's happening- Every time a letter goes out, there is always some
people who's mail system is down, or node is being repaired, or is
just unreachable. In this case, the mail sent to that list member bounces,
and -->I<--, as the list's owner, get a "couldn't deliver to [e-mail]"
message. With 90 members, I get a bounced message for almost every single
letter sent to the list. HOWEVER, it seems that within the past few days
sometimes, but not all the time, the original poster ALSO gets a copy
of the bounce/refuse message. Ed Chadez was especially helpful in forwarding
some bounces he got [Thanks!] and I'm trying to find out what's changed.
I'm not a Unix Guru, but I'm tracking it down. For now, if you get a
bounce when you post, wait. If you get a copy of your post from the
server as a normal list message, do nothing- the post got through, and
you can ignore the bounce. If it does NOT show up as a normal post in
a day or two, you can repost it. I know its a pain, but I have to
find out why suddenly things are bouncing. Thanks again, Ed!

Back to Imagine. Made a US Flag blowing in the wind. Trivial, but
I used the Ripple Effect and it looked TERRIFIC!! The trick is to use a
plane with lots of sections on it- I used 30 by 15. Two triangles
bend like a hinge, not ripple like a surface. Also, THANKS for the
M. Halvorson brush article!! It really is well done.
Jeez- HE should have written the manual.. :-) [No blame to RR,
time pressure for release of Imagine ]

The manual also talks about a neat cinematographic effect that works
well- Camera focal length. It zooms the camera view for closeups without
moving the camera. It has a COMPLETELY different feel than moving the
camera close-up. Try it- it can give very nice results. I modified
Helge's castle anim to zoom in and pan across Batman, then zoom back
some as he begins to stand up, which shows the castle and batwing in
the backgound.

To Rick Tillery - 1) Colorburst yet?, and will you promise a review
to the list? 2) Tell us more about 2.0!

To Glenn Lewis - Do you have the new specs on the Imagine-specific
chunks in its TDDD decription yet? Are you planning on updating TTDDD
when you get them?

Anyway, happy rendering, and remember the new stuff at ab20.larc.nasa.gov!

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

##

Subject: ripple effect
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 91 17:00:05 EST
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Goroway)

Steve...thanks for the hint on the ripple effect...I was just going
to post a question about it.  Besides the triangles acting as hinges
I also seem to have another problem with this...

I rendered a "chrome" plane with some columns behind it, and a blue sky.
The hope was that this chrome plane would appear as a pool of water, which it
did...luckily, I guess.  The problem was that when I added the ripple effect,
and rendered it, to make the water appear as if a drop had fallen in the middle
of it, the plane seemed to loose some triangles in some frames.  For example
some triangles become black...

Anyone experience similar problems?  This is on an 020, using trace mode.

Thanks!
-Kevin
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
| Worcester Polytechnic Institute   | "It happens sometimes, people just     |
| [e-mail]                  |   explode, natural causes."-Repo Man   |
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=

##

Subject: Objects on ab20
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 91 17:58:45 EST
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Goroway)

Questions about the new objects on ab20.

1) Has anyone looked at stpauls yet?  Mine appears to be screwed up...
  As in, there are parts floating around...

2) Is there any attribute information in these objects? At least color?

Thanks
-KEvin
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
| Worcester Polytechnic Institute   | "It happens sometimes, people just     |
| [e-mail]                  |   explode, natural causes."-Repo Man   |
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=

##

Subject: Obs
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 91 19:15:07 EST
From: [e-mail]

Kevin- St. Pauls does have a floating cupula. Apparently the dome
under it was a seperate object and I couldn't find it anywhere. You
can roll your own with sweep pretty fast.

Most, if not all, of the objects in 3-5 DO have  face-level color info.
In fact, some objects, like X29, are re-posts from the first two archives
which have no color info. Unfortunately, the only quick way of seeing the
color info is to render. Sigh. Hey- there's another improvement. Have a
"color edge" flag that colors edges corresponding to the face colors
(ie the tri- or quad-view would render each line as TWO lines, each line
being the color of the face it faces.) This would be annoying when you
are designing, hence the flag. Then you can select color, reflection, and
filter to see/modify. Hmmm... can't think of a much better way of
doing it.

Don't know about your black triangle problem... Sometimes playing with
Phong does strange things, but I don't know if this is your problem.

An another note, I was playing with morph. Morph works really well when
you take an object, and use magnetism and drag points on it, and morph
from one to the other. Obviously you have the same # of points, and the
points seem to match up well- someone reported that morphing a torus to
a sphere worked, but didn't have the matching start/stop points match
well so instead of a hole appearing, he saw the sphere tying itself into
knots. :-)

 I wonder how Imagine determines which points  match? Probably
the order of creation? If so, you could arduously select all the points
in the sphere, sort them, save the sphere, then pick the points in the
right order so that the first sphere point matches the first torus point,
and so on. Obviously a pain.  If this IS the case, I suppose something
could be hacked togther in C to auto-correspond the points, probably
using some "minimize closest distance" algorithm. Be rough, but it
would work. Hey- it could even add "buffer" points to both objects
to get around the same # of points problem. Anyway, I DON'T know
this is how it works- if someone experiments, tell me!

Hey, people! If you have a nice project, post them to ab20! I really want
to see something nice, like Helge's castle.

Anyway, thats all. Good luck with the water, Kevin.


3 weeks to an '040!!

Keep on rendering!

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: Re:  List, Objects
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 91 22:55:17 EST
From: [e-mail]

Steve,

What is this Mike Halverson brush article?  If it is NOT part of one of
Impulse's newsletters, could you email a copy to me OR even put it on the
Imagine group?

Thanks,

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Morphing Cycle Objects (Works!!).
Date: Sat Feb  9 23:22:12 1991
From: [e-mail]

        Well, I did not recieve any replies or comments on my morphing between
two cycle objects (except a reply from Helge, who wasn't sure if it would
work), so I tried a simple example last night.  I created a cycle object from
a large square box and two smaller square boxes (I put the two small boxes
under the large box, like two legs) in the detail editor and grouped the large
box to the smaller boxes.  I then altered these objects to make them long
along one axis (I chose X to elongate for the large box and Z for the smaller
boxes, so I had a long narrow box on tall thin legs).  I loaded each one, in
turn, into the cycle editor and made a simple 10 frame cycle out of it (all
I did was to increase the size of the two leg segments and move them (I
just expanded their diamond segments down and out (the left leg to the left,
the right leg to the right)) apart.  Then I saved them as Cycle1.obj and
Cycle2.obj.  (Note that each cycle object had the same number of points (and
each part of object one corresponded to the same part of object 2).  Then I
went to the ACTION editor.  I set the highest frame to 40.  I added Cycle1.obj
into the first 20 frames and chose 2 cycles.  I loaded Cycle2.obj into frames
21-40, using 2 cycles, AND I chose the TRANSITION count to be 9.  When I
was done, the bar on the cycle editor had 2 segments of 20 lengths AND the
first 10 frames of the second segment were a different color.

I simply chose MAKE (I think that is the correct command name) in the STAGE
editor to create a wire frame preview and IT WORKED BEAUTIFULLY!!!  The
first 20 frames showed my Cycle1.obj going through its paces.  Frames 21-30
showed it CYCLING AND MORPHING into Cycle2.obj.  Frames 31-40 were one complete
cycle of Cycle2.obj.

I realize that this is a simple example, but it does show that Cycle objects
can be morphed.  I am going to be VERY ambitious and try to MORPH my
29 part Mannequin object into some sort of other creature (maybe that
panther I talked about).  I am going to have to do some serious planning
and then morph each of the 29 mannequin parts into their corresponding
panther parts (not to mention the fact that the Biped upright walking
mannequin will have to bend over to become the quadraped walking panther).
Wish me luck, and I'll let you know how it turns out.

Try this Cycle Morphing stuff.  It opens up a lot of WEIRD and FANTASTIC
possibilities.

Trace ON!

Scott Sutherland
Videophile and Amigaphile!

##

Date: Sun, 10 Feb 91 20:46:18 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

Nope, no ColorBurst yet.  M.A.S.T. tells me its with the FCC and that could
mean a fair amount of time before I get it.  The woman I spoke to said they
sent it before Christmas.  She mentioned that other products sent to the FCC
had taken under 14 weeks at the most.  The FCC themselves said their review
could take up to 6 months, but we can hope....

Yes I do promise a full review once I do receive the device!

As for Imagine 2.0.....well you know about all I do:  Rumor has it there is
a new version in the works which will answer many of the questions and fix
many of the problems we've had.  That's all I know (it is a rumor after all).



I might also mention that although I like Imagine quite a bit, with the
attitude and unfair attacks I've recieved from Mr. Halvorson when I posted
a message in comp.sys.amiga.graphics with information directly from Impulse
about the Firecracker 24 software, I do not plan to contribute any more of
my hard earned money to his company.  At least not until I get an appology
from Mr. Halvorson.  If you are interested in the text of this message I
can post it, or you can check it out in c.s.a.graphics.

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Subject: FCC approval
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 91 00:35:26 -0500
From: [e-mail]

Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]> sez:
>>>Nope, no ColorBurst yet.  M.A.S.T. tells me its with the FCC and that could
>>>mean a fair amount of time before I get it.  The woman I spoke to said they
>>>sent it before Christmas.  She mentioned that other products sent to the FCC
>>>had taken under 14 weeks at the most.  The FCC themselves said their review
>>>could take up to 6 months, but we can hope....

I'm minded of a story. I used to work for Tektronix, and was involved in the
design of a logic analyzer called "7D02" (and late another called "1240", but
that's not important). Among other things, like UL approval, we also had to
satisfy FCC rules.

The technical details do not matter, but the upshot is that to both satisfy FCC
EMI radiation limits and to make our logic analyzer run as fast as we thought
the market demanded required changing the fundamental electrical constant of the
universe. (Details, details.) When this was brought to the attention of the
FCC, they relaxed their requirements, but only slightly...


##

Subject: Flag motion
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 91 08:03:09 -0500
From: david r watters <[e-mail]>

After someone mentioned working on a flag using ripple, it inspired me to do
something patriotic.   I messed with ripple quite extensively and even went
as far as doing unusual things such as having the ripple go from fram 1 to 50
and the flag only be in 15-45 or so.  I had also positioned the object
axis so the ripple started in the upper right corner and moved down diagonally
along X.
To sum up a chunk of time to someone wanting to do something like this....
It just doesn't cut it as a flag simulator. :-)  The damping of the ripple,
the inability to loop correctly and problems with the brush map just didn't
allow it to look real at all.

Solution: Good old Terrain.

The only catch is you have to have TSilver too.

Now, if only you could change object assignments in the cycle editor after
cell0 assuming the same number of verts and faces, you could save it as a
cycle object instead of having to load all the different terrains for
each wave cycle.


I hope this saves someone some time and wasn't too novice.

David
[e-mail]

##

Subject: World & Rotating Objects
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 91 08:46:40 EST
From: John J. Rosner <[e-mail]>

Rick Tillery ([e-mail]) writes:

>Anyone out there know where I can get an IFF of the world?  I would prefer
>a simple hi-res interlaced 2 color (blue and green) map.  I want to wrap
>it around a sphere.  Thanks for the help.

I used Softwood's clip art to do that. I used Dpaint to area fill brown land
and bluegreen water.  Then mapped it to a sphere in Imagine, it looks good.
I could upload the the Imagine files to Xanth (abcfd20...) but I don't know
about uploading an image from Softwood's clip art, is it legal?  Or could I
modify and upload it?  Would you want the Imagine files anyway?

This world thing brings me to another point.  I rendered the world rotating
and then put the X29 orbiting it and that looks good, but the world rotates
in the wrong direction.

ROTATING OBJECTS.  I can see two ways to rotate something, and one doesn't work.
The one that doesn't work is to use the CYCLE EDITOR to twist the object half
way around and then twist it the other half.  This rotates fine in the CYCLE
EDITOR but doesn't in the STAGE EDITOR, perhaps because it is a single,
non-hierarchical, object?

The second way is using the STAGE EDITOR's ACTION EDITOR's alignment function.
Unfortunately it doesn't work all that well, for me anyway.  I would expect
one could say 360 in alignment and that should do it.  No, it stands still.
I have had varied success with using 180 and 180 and 90, 90, 90, 90.  As for
the direction of rotation using plus or minus should affect it but the world
is the only one that insists on going clockwise.  I did a rotating torus using
180, 180 and it rendered rotating counter clockwise, I redid the world and in
the STAGE EDITOR it rotated counter clockwise when I rendered it, it was going
clockwise again.  I guess more superstitious behavior will be required to get
it going right, sigh.

Let me know if you want something on Xanth. Later,
John Rosner


##

Subject: List, Objects
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 91 08:44:53 PST
From: [e-mail] (Glenn M. Lewis ~)

>>>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 91 15:10:36 EST, [e-mail] said:

Steve> To Glenn Lewis - Do you have the new specs on the
Steve> Imagine-specific chunks in its TDDD decription yet? Are you
Steve> planning on updating TTDDD when you get them?

    No, Steve, I don't have any new specs on the Imagine-specific
chunks.  If anybody *does* get them, then please send a copy to me.  If
there is enough interest, Steve, I'll put the Imagine-sepcific chunks
into Read/WriteTDDD.  But judging from the current dismal response to
TTDDD, I doubt it will materialize.  What I may do is simply add the
Imagine stuff and then let the registered owners of TTDDD know about it,
and get them an update somehow.
                            -- Glenn

Steve> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve> Steve Worley                                   [e-mail]
Steve> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

[e-mail] | These are my own opinions... not Intel's


##

Subject: Obs
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 91 08:50:44 PST
From: [e-mail] (Glenn M. Lewis ~)

>>>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 91 19:15:07 EST, [e-mail] said:

Steve> Kevin- St. Pauls does have a floating cupula. Apparently the dome
Steve> under it was a seperate object and I couldn't find it anywhere.
Steve> You can roll your own with sweep pretty fast.

    Yes, I noticed this too with Rayshade.

Steve> Most, if not all, of the objects in 3-5 DO have face-level color
Steve> info.  In fact, some objects, like X29, are re-posts from the
Steve> first two archives which have no color info. Unfortunately, the
Steve> only quick way of seeing the color info is to render. Sigh. Hey-
Steve> there's another improvement. Have a "color edge" flag that colors
Steve> edges corresponding to the face colors (ie the tri- or quad-view
Steve> would render each line as TWO lines, each line being the color of
Steve> the face it faces.) This would be annoying when you are
Steve> designing, hence the flag. Then you can select color, reflection,
Steve> and filter to see/modify. Hmmm... can't think of a much better
Steve> way of doing it.

    I just thought about this, and believe it would be possible to
simply run ReadTDDD on the object, write it out to a file (the results
will most likely be *huge*) and then look at the color information
directly.  Of course, attempting to figure out which "face" is which
will be extremely challenging by just looking at the numbers, but at
least you can see how the colors vary.

    I didn't post this to the list because it is not that good of a
solution.  It was just a thought that you might want to check out.

                            -- Glenn

[e-mail] | These are my own opinions... not Intel's

##

Subject: Re: import object into form editor
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 91 10:05:52 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 8, 10:29am, Thorsten Ebers wrote:
} Subject: import object into form editor
}
} Hello,
} i have problems importing created objects with the detail editor into
} the form editor.Is it not possible ? When I create a object with the forms
} editor I can export to the detail ,modify it there,and import again in the
} form editor.Any hints ?
} Thorsten
}
}-- End of excerpt from Thorsten Ebers

Well, as I understand the manual, you cannot load detail objects into the
forms editor.  It is probably because the forms editor requires a
particular format for the pool of points that make up an object.  I haven't
tried modifying a form object in detail, saving it and going back into
forms with it.  I accidently loaded a detail object into forms and my
system went "boom" so I wouldn't recommend anybody else try that.  I always
keep two copies of form objects--one in the forms format and one that
contains attributes from the detail editor.

--Ed


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: World & Rotating Objects
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 91 17:21:09 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

I don't think you can legally upload clip art for me, but I don't know about
an altered version.  I also don't need the Imagine files either since I
wouldn't have the image to wrap around it.  If you come across one that is
PD or alter that clip art one enough to feel like chancing a transfer, I
would appreciate the image (e-mail or at Xanth).  Thanx.

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Subject: Rotating objects, forms editor<>detail editor, morphing cycles
Date: 12 Feb 91 10:20:04 MET (Tue)
From: [e-mail] (Helge Egelund Rasmussen)

[..Rotating objects]
=====================

John J. Rosner <dkuug!europa.asd.contel.com!rosner> wrote:
> The second way is using the STAGE EDITOR's ACTION EDITOR's alignment function.
> Unfortunately it doesn't work all that well, for me anyway.  I would expect
> one could say 360 in alignment and that should do it.  No, it stands still.
> I have had varied success with using 180 and 180 and 90, 90, 90, 90.  As for
> the direction of rotation using plus or minus should affect it but the world
> is the only one that insists on going clockwise.  I did a rotating torus using
> 180, 180 and it rendered rotating counter clockwise, I redid the world and in
> the STAGE EDITOR it rotated counter clockwise when I rendered it, it was going
> clockwise again.  I guess more superstitious behavior will be required to get
> it going right, sigh.

The values given in the alignment requester in the action editor is absolute
not relative (I think).
I have rotated a object through 360 degrees in 10 frames by adding 2
5-frame alignment timelines. The first one had a Z value of 180 degrees and the
other had a Z value of 360 degrees. This made the object do a 360 degree
anti-clockwise rotation.

Maybe the object would turn the other way (ie. clockwise) if you used
-180 and -360 in the two requesters.

[..Forms editor <-> Detail editor]
===================================

Thorsten Ebers <dkuug!unlisys.in-berlin.de!robocop> wrote:
> i have problems importing created objects with the detail editor into
> the form editor.Is it not possible ? When I create a object with the forms
> editor I can export to the detail ,modify it there,and import again in the
> form editor.Any hints ?

According to the manual you CAN'T load detail editor objects into the
form editor.
The reason is that the form-object contain 'symmetry information' that isn't
found in the detail-objects, and that the detail-objects contain attribute
information that isn't found in the form-objects.
However, the manual also state (wrongly) that you can't load detail objects
into the cycle editor, so it MIGHT be possible to do it somehow.
I'm nearly sure, however, that you can't CREATE an object in the detail editor,
and then load it into the forms editor. It might be possible to create an object
in the forms editor, assign attributes to it in the detail editor, and then
modify it again in the forms editor.

[.. Morphing cycle objects ..]
===============================
As Scott mentioned earlier, it is in fact possible to morph a cycle object.
Here is another example showing how to do it:

    I loaded the head of the 'Batman' object into the cycle editor, and
    'pulled his nose' using the 'drag points' command.
    Then I loaded the Batman walk-cycle that I had created earlier and assigned
    the new head to the corresponding segment.
    Then I saved the modified cycle under a new name.
    In the cycle editor, I then added the original cycle in frame 1 only.
    Then I added the modified cycle in frame 2 to 20 (setting the cycle count
    to 1.0 and the transition length (??) to 18).

When I rendered this anim, Batman took a step, and his nose grew!!!

With a little bit of experimentation, I found the following restrictions
on what is possible:
 - The two morphing cycles must have the same 'group' structure.
 - They must have the same 'keyframe' structure (I got this message when trying
   to morph a shapshot of a cycle object into a cycle).
 - Each subobject in the first cycle must have the same number of points and
   faces as the corresponding subobject in the other cycle.

It seems that Imagine can do a lot more than is implied by the manuals :-) :-)

Helge
---
Helge E. Rasmussen  .  PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00  .  E-mail:  [e-mail]
Compel A/S          .  FAX   + 45 31 37 06 44  .
Copenhagen, Denmark

##

Subject: Cycle objects not cycling!!
Date:    Tue, 12 Feb 91 19:38 EST
From: "Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]>

     I created an object (a radar dish) in the detail editor, joined all the
parts together so they were one object, then loaded it into the cycle editor.
No problem so far.  Then, I made it into a 40 frame cycle of it rotating about
the Z axis.  No problem still.  I test-animated it there in the C.E. and it
looked perfect.  No problems.
     Yet no matter what I try, I can't get it to budge in the Stage Editor!
The cycle is from frame 0 to frame 39, the animation is 240 frames, and the
object is set up to cycle itself 6 times.
     The thing doesn't move throughout the entire animation.

     Also, I'm having no luck getting brush mapping on curved surfaces to work.
Can anybody tell me EXACTLY where to place the darn axes and which limbs have
to be scaled to the right proportions and what the attributes should be, etc?
     I am rather clueless.  Thanks for all the help!

     P.S.:  Is anybody else running out of Hard Disk space rather quickly
            because of Imagine's strange "compression" format?  I've got 13
            megs tied up in 20 seconds of simple animations.

/---------------------------------------------------------------------\
| -Doug  Bischoff- |    *** ***    ====--\         | "I'm not God...  |
| -DEB110 @ PSUVM- |   *  ***  *     ==|<>\___     |    I was just    |
| -The Black Ring- |    *** ***        |______\    |       misquoted!"|
| --- "Wheels" --- |      ***           O   O      |   -Dave Lister   |
| Corwyn Blakwolfe |     T.R.I.     -------------  |    RED DWARF     |
\---- [e-mail]  D.BISCHOFF on GEnie  THIRDMAN on PAN -----/

##

Subject: Rotating Objects
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 91 06:30:02 EST
From: John J. Rosner <[e-mail]>

"Doug Bischoff" <[e-mail]> writes:

> I created an object (a radar dish) in the detail editor, joined all the
>parts together so they were one object, then loaded it into the cycle editor.
>No problem so far.  Then, I made it into a 40 frame cycle of it rotating about
>the Z axis.  No problem still.  I test-animated it there in the C.E. and it
>looked perfect.  No problems.
>     Yet no matter what I try, I can't get it to budge in the Stage Editor!
>The cycle is from frame 0 to frame 39, the animation is 240 frames, and the
>object is set up to cycle itself 6 times.

My problem exactly.  Is your object to be cycled a single object?  I have
found the cycle editor does not work on single objects, but only objects
with relative motion, that is having moving parts.  If your object enters
the stage editor as one piece then maybe the stage editor thinks there is
nothing to cycle.  If your object is rotating on top of a fixed base in the
cycle editor then my theory is blown and never mind.

Interested in hearing more,
John Rosner


##

Subject: loading and saving Cycles
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 1991 10:32:18 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Stephen Menzies)

I'm curious whether anyone else is having this specific problem:

I have been working (for sometime) on several cycled objects,
often saving their progressions to disk and only once in awhile
loading them back into the cycle editor. All of a sudden I started to
get "Not a (proper) animated object" requester on all of my cycled
objects when I try to load them. Suspicious of the computer itself,
an accelerated A2000HD, i moved the files to an A3000. Same thing,
they won't load. Sooo, I experimented. This is what I found: A cycle
can be saved dozens and dozens of times and then reloaded. No problem.
But if a cycled (any) object or even a cycle without assigned objects
is saved and reloaded 7 (!) times, and then saved once more (now 8 saves),
it cannot be reloaded!! My cycled objects all died! I have recreated
this problem (bug?) on both the A2000 and 3000, over and over again.
    I should add, that I am running the same version (copy) on both
machines.  Anyone want to test this out with their copy and let me know
what happens? To clarify: make a small cylcle. Save and reload over
and over to you get a requester stating "not a (proper).....)

thanx -stephen
--
Stephen Menzies
Email: [e-mail]

##

Subject: Wrapping
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 91 14:48:24 EST
From: [e-mail]

I've been playing with brush wrapping, and I thought I had it down,
especially with the Mike Halvorson brush-wrapping article. I've wrapped
lots of spheres, ad don't have too many problems.

I made a nice coke-can object with tab and everything, and wanted to
wrap a logo on it. No problem! Just a wrap x, flat z wrap, which I
had great luck with with some primative cylinders. The results? Ghastly!
There is definately SOME effect on the can, but it ain't MY image. If
it is, its some small part stretched and distorted beyond recognition.

Hmmmm, says I. Must have placed the axis wrong. Try again. 5 times.
Hmmm, says I. I must be stupid. I make  a primative cylinder the same
size as the can. First try- perfection. I carefully place the can's
brush axis in exactly the same orientation. Seventh try- mush.

Wrapping kinda died for this complex object. I also tried Wrap X Wrap Z
and had no luck. I've done simpler objects and primatives lots of
times, though.

Keep on rendering,

Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: Re: Wrapping
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 91 16:05:03 -0500
From: Udo K Schuermann <[e-mail]>

[e-mail] writes:
> I made a nice coke-can object with tab and everything, and wanted to
> wrap a logo on it. No problem! Just a wrap x, flat z wrap, which I
> had great luck with with some primative cylinders. The results? Ghastly!
> There is definately SOME effect on the can, but it ain't MY image. If
> it is, its some small part stretched and distorted beyond recognition.
...
> Wrapping kinda died for this complex object.

I've had exactly the same problem with a Mountain Dew can, and could
not for the life of me get the wrapping to work.  Then, in
desperation, I tried Flat x, Flat z and that produced a projection
onto and through the can.  At first glance this was ok, until I became
aware of the distortion around the sides |-(

I've now decided that it's easiest (although certainly not fastest) to
convert the brush to a flat image and merge that into the can proper.
This has its good and bad points, of course. :-/

If anyone has better luck, and can provide a recipe that works, PLEASE
don't hesitate to mail it to the list!!

(2.0 _better_ get things working intuitively)
                 ___
 ._.  Udo Schuermann        / | \    "There is no Way to Peace.
 ( )  [e-mail]    \/|\/     Peace is the Way!"  -- Gandhi.
                 ~~~

##

Subject: Glass
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 91 16:05:09 EST
From: [e-mail]

The Art Of Glass.


Glass is perhaps the hardest look to perfect. It is obviously a worthwhile
attribute to use, but it is tricky to get it just right.

The first obstacle is just to get it working. The MOST common complaint
is "I can't make ANYTHING transparent". The reason is a bug in Imagine.
ANY shininess in an objects attributes shuts down transparency. You
have to use 0 shiniess. Not a small amount, zero. Only then can you get
it to function.

Transparency is controlled by the filter attribute. The higher the attributes,
th more light of that color gets though. In this way, the name "filter" is
a bad choice in my opinion- to filter light completely, you select 0 0 0.
Good transparency needs a good amount of amplitude. Subtle amouts just do not
show up. For a transparent object, 200 is the smallest I use, but you
can experiment. Objects that you can see clearly through I usually pump
up to 240-255. Also, glass has a SLIGHT bluish tinge, so I use
RGB= 250,250,255. Cherry Jello might be 240, 140, 140.

Glass is a real light reflector- It has very bright, tight highlights. I crank
specular up to 255,255,255, and hardness up to 255. Having soft higlights
looks wrong and also blocks out some of the image coming though.

If you want to use glass, don't forget the index of refraction. The
index of refraction tells how much light bends when it moves from one
media to another. The larger the index, the more the bend at the
intesection. A value of 1.0 makes no bend, and is like air. A value of
2.9 will bend light so far that it's almost unreal. A list of refractive
indeces-

            Air           1.02
        Ice           1.309
        Alchohol      1.329
            Water         1.333
            Glass         1.50
            Quartz & salt 1.644
        Diamond       2.417

Remember, setting a sofa to being transparent with an index of refraction of
1.309 will NOT make everyone say "Wow! Its made of ice!" The other attributes
are just as important in giving transparent objects character.

Also, with the index of refraction too high, light coming though will be so
bent there will be no image recognizable. Especially for objects that are
large or complex, a lower index of refraction looks better (and traces faster!)
Anything that is transparent becomes a lens, and a sofa is a crummy optical
instrument. For a transparent sphere, I had to lower the index to 1.08 to
make objects on the other side recognizable.

Roughness and altitude maps are particularly effective with transparent
objects. The direction light bends depends on the surface orientation at the
spot it enters and nothing else. Thus, a rough or altituded (?) surface adds
a lot of effect to the transparent light. Think of a fresh ice cube- you
see a lot of light though it, but the frost on the outside makes it hard
to look at anything THROUGH it. If the frost melts, the outside surface is
smooth, and you can see though the ice pretty easily.

I prefer using a
random altitude map made by using the airbrush in DPaint III than using the
rougness attribute. The reason has to do with roughness being a random
surface direction change (like it should be), but its not consistant from
frame to frame of an anim- it looks like there's lots of bugs crawling on
it, to steal Scott's complaint.

The surface direction is very important to the character or transmitted light,
so Phong shading is very important as well. Phong shading smooths objects
made of polygons into a smooth(er) surface, as opposed to having faceted
sides like a cut jewel. Phong shading is used for determining the direction
light bends, so (just like roughness) it will make the character of your
object change.

A note- If you have any of the objects I put on ab20.larc.nasa.gov, some
objects are NOT phong-shadable. This has to to with them having duplicate
points and edges so Imagine doesn't realize the faces are adjoining. To fix
this, use an undocumented feature in the detail editor, called "Merge" to
merge the dupicate points, then you should be fine. The objects in the
first two files on ab20 are all this way- the files 3-5 I think I caught
most of them and already merged them.

The color that you set glass determines the shade Imagine will give to
non-perfect glass- ie glass without transparency set at 255 255 255. Black
( 0 0 0 ) works well, since then the  color doesn't cover up the image.
You can experiment, though.

One last important  attribute of glass is reflection. Glass reflects
light a little bit, so should be slightly reflective. Too reflective,
and the transmitted image gets overpowered. Think of a window- you see
though it quite clearly without seeing much reflection. At night, when
there is little light coming though, you can see the mirror-like qualities
of the glass. Transparency should almost always dominate. Good value
for reflection are in the range 30-60, and again, I use a SLIGHT blue tint.

A fun, advanced topic is lenses. You can make them, and they'll actually
work! To make a simple lens, make a primative sphere of a pretty hefty # of
slices and sections (like double the default). Go to "select points"
mode, and use the dragbox to select all but the top 20% of the sphere.
Delete these points. Move the axis to the very bottom of the half-lens
using M (shift-M). Make sure that the axis' Z location is as close to the
Z locaton of the bottom ring of points as you can (important!) Then select
the object, COPY it, PASTE it. There are now 2 identical half-lenses on
top of each other. Select one, then use Transformations to scale it
x=1.0 y=1.0 z=-1.00 mirror reverse it. If your axis is placed right, you'll
have both half lenses sharing the center (previously bottom) row of points.
Select both halves, then JOIN them into a single object, then MERGE them
to get rid of the duplicate points in the center. Set the attributes to
glass, and Voila! a lens! It works! This is a converging (magnifying)
lens, and you can try a diverging lens, though I haven't, yet. The
lens will also take much larger indexes of refraction without munging
the image, unlike the sofa.  Quick rules- object far away, you'll see
it upside-down. Too close, it will be really big and out of focus. At
the focal length, it will be in focus and magnified. Focal length
is proportional to R (of the sphere) and the index of refraction. Kinda
advanced, but lotsa fun.

Steve's cool transparent ball-

Color =0 0 0
Transp= 250 250 255
Reflec= 49 49 53
Specular= 150 150 150
hardness= 255 255 255
rough=0
shininess=0 (CRITICAL)
Index=1.08


Anyway, this is Steve's lecture on transparency and you. Keep posting
to the list!

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------




##

Date: Wed, 13 Feb 91 22:14:54 -0500
From: david r watters <[e-mail]>

Up to now all of my graphics work has been with one company with a
prearranged agreement.  I am going to start doing some extra work on the
side and I was wondering what the standard rate some of you are charging
is.

Do you charge by the hour, frames, complexity, or anim time (per second)?

I would appriciate any information.

David


##

Subject: Brush mapping.
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 00:53:45 -0500
From: david r watters <[e-mail]>


Sorry but I don't know how to comment other peoples mail....

Regarding the mapping of the coke can that didn't work with the whole can
but did on a simple cylinder...

Is the Can, including the top and the tab, one object.  Is the brush being
wrapped onto parts other than the side?

Regarding Bump mapping (altitude)....

What is the best way to get good results?  I bump mapped a 100x100 brush that
had 8 shades of gray, and although it partially worked, It looked like a
bad Photocopy.  It had darkeness comming out around the boundries of where
the brush was cut out and the altitude on one side was darker than on the other.


As far as color mapping with an F/X.

I did two animations with a waving flag.  One using a plane with a ripple
F/X and one using cells from Terrain.  I noticed that the brush followed the
waves up and down on the terrain version, but on the ripple F/X version the
brush map stayed stationary and the waves when up and down through it.

Is this always the case?   This is probably stated somewhere in the manual
but me and manuals don't talk too much.


Last question.... I promise.

Any words on new versions of the software.  There are quite a few bugs and
I could always stand a new feature or two! :-)
If we are registered, would these upgrades be delivered automatically, like
my pagestream is, or would we have to learn about it on our own and orderwok
it?

ThanksxD.....

David

##

Subject: Impulse newsletter
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 09:05:20 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

According to the Impulse group on People/Link there should be
a newsletter coming out "within the next two weeks" advising
you on the status of the Imagine update, an upcoming "attributes
how-to/tutorial/example disk", and other matters relating to
registered Impulse product users.

mark

##

Subject: Administrivia
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 13:32:16 EST
From: [e-mail]

The list goes well. We had a surge in membership last week that
brought us from 70 to 90.

The problem of getting bounce-like messages when you post was solved.
Apparently, it was a mailer at DEC that wasn't mailing a bounce back
to imagine-owner@athena (me!), it was mailing it to everyone in the
"From:" line. I re-routed the mail and it went away. This morning,
mail to Viet Ho started doing the same thing (argh!) so I re-routed
that. This SHOULD solve the problem.

A few users have asked me about posting polices and guidelines. Here's
my opinion, and we can debate it if necessary.

 1) Don't be afraid to post _anything_ to the list. We have a VERY high
    signal-to-noise ratio (unlike netnews!) and very, very few "cruft"
    messages. If mindless posts become common, then I (or others) can send
    personal e-mail saying "hey, you're not really adding anything." This
    is not anywhere near being the case now, so I'd encourage everyone to
    write. Don't worry if you have a stupid, or beginner question- I'll
    bet you you'll get a proper response that will help you. I know all
    about Imagine's learning WALL, and I'm more than ready to help, and
    so are others.

 2) Anything posted to this list, unless you specifically mention it in
    the post, is public domain. You can print them out, hang them on the
    wall, sell them to your friends, whatever. This means you can freely
    excerpt parts and post them on BBSs or whatever. It is VERY bad practice
    to leave out the author's name and the source (the USENET Imagine List).

 3) More members is a good thing! This is not an exclusive club, and more
    people will make more good ideas and questions. If you know someone
    who might be interested have them e-mail ME ([e-mail]) and
    I'll add them. You can also post "join the Imagine mailing list"
    notices wherever. In fact, if ONE of you wants to post an
    article to comp.sys.amiga.graphics, I'd appreciate it. Its the only
    amiga newsgroup I don't get... grrr. This list was originally anounced
    in comp.sys.amiga.misc, and has only had one "join now" post. Remember,
    its free, its about Imagine & 3D on Amigas, anyone can join, and
    they should mail ME ([e-mail]) to join.


4)  Last, any administrivia questions, mail me ([e-mail]).
    I am the person who adds/deletes members, handles mailer problems (all
    of them! Arggh!) and manages the list. To post to the list, just send
    mail to [e-mail] and everyone on the list will get a
    copy. It's just that easy!


Thats it for now. Incidentally, thanks for all the personal e-mail about
my transparency article. I'm glad so many of you liked it.

Helge- Is castle PD, as long as you're credited?
Glenn Lewis- I'll see what I can do about the new TDDD description.

Keep on rendering!                      [2 weeks to the 040 boards!]

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: EHB Brushes
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 14:15:20 -0500
From: Udo K Schuermann <[e-mail]>

Has anyone had success using Extra Halfbright brushes in Imagine?
I've tried mapping Rick Park's "Clipper" (amazing picture!!) onto an
object, and Imagine complained that it couldn't load the brush.

Does anyone know of a way to convert such EHB pictures into HAM or
some other format?

 ._.  Udo Schuermann
 ( )  [e-mail]

##

Subject: Imagine 2.0 Info!
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 13:09:34 EST
From: [e-mail]

I talked with Rick Rodriguez, author of the manual. He told me:

1)  No 2.0 for a while! They're working on their 24bit paint program first.

2)  However, Version 1.0A RSN! (Like in a week or two!) Bug fixes, plus:

      -Luminous objects
      -Posing cycle objects in detail
      -Simpler definition of key frames
      - "A ton of other features"


This is all I know, so I can't answer questions. However, we'll all
hopefully have it in our hands 2 weeks from now, and we can find
out ourselves!


Keep on rendering!

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

##

Subject: v1.0A comments
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 11:14:07 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Ed Chadez)

On Feb 14,  1:09pm, [e-mail] wrote:
} Subject: Imagine 2.0 Info!
}
} I talked with Rick Rodriguez, author of the manual. He told me:
}
} 1)  No 2.0 for a while! They're working on their 24bit paint program first.
}
} 2)  However, Version 1.0A RSN! (Like in a week or two!) Bug fixes, plus:
}
}       -Luminous objects
}       -Posing cycle objects in detail
}       -Simpler definition of key frames
}       - "A ton of other features"

ALLRIGHT!  This is Wonderful news, Steve.  Personally, luminous objects is
something that I actually have a use for.  I would love to hear the "ton of
other features" but understand Impulses's policy of adding stuff as it's
going out the door, so to speak.

[toggel soapbox mode: on]

Fair warning, my friends.  Version 1.0 was scheduled for May, 1990 and I
didn't receive version 0.9 until around october, so NOBODY HOLD THEIR
BREATH for version 1.0A.

Like many of you, I've been reading comp.sys.amiga.misc, and have read lots
of flames about AmigaDOS version 2.0 for non-3000 owners (why isn't it out
yet, don't they know we want it yesterday, and so on).  I've got my own
opinions on THAT issue and I don't want to bring them here.

All I want to say is, Impulse should concentrate on their user services
(the people who answer the phone when you call for help).  An updated
version of Imagine would be great, but what would be just as good is more
information on how to use the tools we have now (I understand the upcoming
newsletter contains just that.)

So when Mr. UPS finally brings v1.0A to your office, your home or whatever,
I'm sure we'll all be grateful.  But until then, I recommend that you don't
waste your time wondering what's taking Impulse so long to get it out the
door.

Thanks for the ear, my friends.  I promise further letters from me won't be
as preachy (or as long).

--Ed Chadez

ps--BTW: am I the ONLY Amiga500 user that runs Imagine?  I get the feeling
that the rest of you speed demons are using 2x00s/3000s.  I've got two megs
of memory and a hard disk.  I'm thinking of getting a MegaMidget Racer
(info/comments? eMail me) which will give me 25Mhz '030/'882 capabality, just
so I can catch up to the rest of you.  And Steve--keep up the good work!


--
------------------------------ CARL Systems, Inc. ----------------------------
  //[e-mail] * Colorado Alliance of Research Libraries * [phone]
\X/ information databases (via telnet): pac.carl.org  inquiries: [e-mail]
--------------------------  >> Systems That Inform <<  -----------------------

##

Subject: Re: EHB Brushes
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 91 23:42:30 -0500
From: Udo K Schuermann <[e-mail]>

On Feb 14,  2:15pm, Udo K Schuermann wrote:
} Subject: EHB Brushes
}
} Does anyone know of a way to convert such EHB pictures into HAM or
} some other format?

On Thu, 14 Feb 91 13:09:05 -0800, Ed Chadez suggested:
> If you have digipaint iii/transfer 24, I think you can use that.  However,
> there MUST some ftp/pd stuff out there (ab20, for example) that will
> convert half-bright to ham.  Also, if you have ANY ham paint packages, you
> may want to try loading this picture into it.  I know Photon Paint (1.0,
> that is) will read plain 320x??? 32 color files and convert them "on the
> fly" to ham, and it does a good job.  I haven't tried v1.0 with half-bright
> (64) colors.

Thanks, Ed, but I've tried both DigiPaint and PhotonPaint (both very
old, v1.0?) and both nearly did the job, but no cigar.  DigiPaint did
overall a better job, but the rocks were neon red and blue with a bit
of yellow and green sprinkled in.  PhotonPaint made the rocks nearly
disappear and gave the picture a very washed-out look, and had a few
minor color problems.
    Both do fine with 32 color pictures and "normal" stuff, but
EHB is something that every program has trouble with. <sniff!>

 ._.  Udo "still looking for an EHB->HAM converter" Schuermann
 ( )  [e-mail]


##

Subject: EHB brushes
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:44:19 EST
From: [e-mail]

There is absolutely NO question what the best converter program is- it's
The Art Department. It does the cleanest conversions and scalings I've
ever seen on the Amiga, and is very easy to use. It also handles all
standard Amiga picture formats, and you can get loaders for weird formats
like GIF and Targa. It can even read and write the funky Impulse format
RGBN.

In fact, you can convert the EHB into an IFF24 file instead of a HAM
picture and avoid any fringing artifacts.

Art Department is a slick program, and I'm very happy with it, though it
has two problems. It EATS memory, cuz it translates ALL pictures to 24 bit
to scale or convert them (the source of the high quality) so you'll really
need at least 2 megs, preferably more, do work with pix of any decent size.
The second problem is the company's philosophy of "We we give them an
excellent product, the best on the market, and make them pay for it." The
Art Department costs $90.00, and Art Department Pro, which adds AREXX and
2 or 3 extra formats costs $200.00. Loaders for Targa and other formats
(there are a lot) are $25.00 a shot. I think these prices are too high,
but I am so impressed with the quality of its images that I think at
least The Art Department is worth it.

I'm not connected with these guys, I'm just a happy user.

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


##

Subject: Algorithmic Textures in Turbo Silver
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:48:58 EST
From: [e-mail]

I have some questions aboout textures and effects. I am a C hacker at heart,
and I'd LOVE to make my own algorithmic textures. I have never used Turbo
Silver (Imagine is my first 3D modeler/renderer), but I understand that you
could actually create textures in C and use them. Is this true? And the big
question: DO THESE TEXTURES WORK IN IMAGINE?? I would really like to do
some hacking with them.

I also have ideas for effects, like "Crumble" which I'm tempted to
do anyway using TTDDD and saving about 50 objects and just showing them each
in order.

What textures/effects would people like to see? I can think of lots:

Textures:

  Rock/granite          Wood doesn't cut it, though it makes a nice sandstone.

  Dirt                  Not for soil, but to make ANYTHING look weathered and
                        non-perfect. Incredibly useful!!

  Cloth                 Fine crosshatch

  Clouds                Wispy, transparent. For steam & smoke too!

  Fur                   Tough.

  Scales/shingles       Fish + Roofs

  Pebbles               For sand (very small) or stone texture

  Grass



Effects:

  Group explode         Children fly off spinning, not faces

  Chunk explode         Breaks object into setable # of children along
                        "weak" lines, then group-explodes them.

  Crumble               Fun! Would have to assign a baseline or ground.

  Dissolve              From evaporating water to a Star Trek transporter

  Fire/Flame            Shifting luminosity/transparency makes object have
                        surface flames.



  Also, it might be very interesting (and not THAT hard) to extend textures to
altitude mapping. So the cloth texture at a very coarse, burlap-like setting
would have light bounce off of the fibers with  shadows in the interstices.
(great vocab word!)  Doesn't seem that hard, but I'm not the one trying to get
Imagine to do this. (Yet!)

Anyway, if someone can e-mail (or post; it's quite relevant) how textures could
be programmed in C in Turbo Silver and if they work in Imagine, I'd be
very interested.


Keep on Rendering!

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

##

Subject: Re: Algorithmic Textures in Turbo Silver
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 07:55:04 MST
From: [e-mail] (Marvin Landis)

> I have some questions aboout textures and effects. I am a C hacker at heart,
> and I'd LOVE to make my own algorithmic textures. I have never used Turbo
> Silver (Imagine is my first 3D modeler/renderer), but I understand that you
> could actually create textures in C and use them. Is this true? And the big
> question: DO THESE TEXTURES WORK IN IMAGINE?? I would really like to do
> some hacking with them.

Yes you could write your own textures in C for Turbo Silver, however I never
saw anyone create any extra textures.  I started to write my own clouds
texture one time, but textures were not very well documented and I could never
get it to work correctly.

However, the textures from Turbo Silver do not work with Imagine.  I saw
a message once from Mike Halvorson that said TS textures cause Imagine to
"blow up", I have never tried it though.  I talked to Mike on PeopleLink
the other day, and he said the object format and the texture specifications
would be released soon (the last half of Feb), so maybe if they send out a
newsletter we will get more information about obtaining these things.

Marvin Landis
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: EHB brushes
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 15:32:51 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

Geesh!  What's the biggest image you can load with only 2 megs?  I have 5 and
TAD (or ADPro for that matter) won't let me load a 1024x800 or larger image?
When I use 2.0 and lose 512 K, I can't load anything bigger than 640x480 (no
vert _AND_ horz overscan, only one or the other).  Anyway, what's your limit?

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])

P.S.  BTW, is that comment about the '040 board a general comment or are you
getting one yourself.  I might have a deal with GVP to Beta test their '040
in a month or two.  I hope...I hope....I hope...I hope...


##

Subject: Re: EHB brushes
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 17:38:08 -0500
From: david r watters <[e-mail]>

Rick is right.  I had 3megs and when using ADPro I couldn't do anything
worthwhile.  Adding another two megs seems to have resolved this.

Dave

ps. Does anyone want to send me some ideas on what a good freelance fee is?


##

Subject: Re: EHB Brushes
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 15:11:12 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

I don't know of any PD prgs, but If you'll send the pic to me I'll xlate it
for you and return it ASAP ...

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])
Q

##

Subject: wrapping tubes
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 91 21:22:52 -0500
From: [e-mail]

Reading of the trials and travails some of you are having with wrapping labels
on Coke cans, I decided to try it for the hell of it.

Anyway, I didn't have any Coke label IFF's so I used a Sports Illustrated
swimsuit IFF I had lying around - and got it working.

After I post this, I'll be uploading an archive containing a working wrap
that you can look at. One thing I found counter-intuitive:

If the tube is one from the "primitive" menu, then it is symmetrical by
rotation around Z. In that case, the proper settings are:

   Flat X
   Wrap Z

The size of the brush is also somewhat counterintuitive: Given these settings,
the X size of the brush doesn't matter: The IFF is stretched to meet on the
back of the tube no matter what the brush X size is. (Except that for reasons I
don't quite understand, sometimes when I set it big the brush went away
entirely. So I didn't change it from its default size.)

However, the Z size is extremely important, as you'll see if you examine my
object.

I didn't use "lharc" to create the archive because I couldn't get it to
preserve the directory structure, so I used "zoo". To unpack the archive,
perform the following steps:

1. Download "wrap.zoo".

2. Type the following CLI commands exactly:

    copy wrap.zoo Imagine:
    cd Imagine:
    zoo x// wrap.zoo

(...so you better have an "Imagine:" set up before you try to do this. Use
"assign".)



##

Subject: Re: Algorithmic Textures in Turbo Silver
Date: 16 Feb 91 10:04:40 EST
From: Rick Rodriguez <[e-mail]>

Steve, there is a Textures programming toolkit on Compuserve's AmigaVendor
Impulse library.  It's freely distributable.  Unfortunately, these textures
won't work in Imagine; however, you may try to contact Mike Halvorson
and get a description of what changes need to be made to achieve
compatability.  You may also consider creating a textures and fx set of
disks for sale.  Mike is very receptive to entrepeneurial efforts which
complement Impulse's product line.
--Rick


##

Subject: Track to Object
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 91 17:08:28 PST
From: [e-mail] (Dave Coughran)

I saw this on PLink and thought I'd pass it along.

In the Stage editor it is possible to re-track the camera to your object
after moving the camera (or the object I assume, I didn't try it), just
hit Right Amiga-C and hit return to clear the requestor, and the camera
is now re-aligned to your object.

I had been going back to Action and doing the delete-add-track sequence
on the camera's actor bar.

I don't know if it is in the manual or not, I know I didn't see it.

Has anyone else had much luck with the lens idea, mine works but it still
doesn't look quite right.....

Thanks for all the useful information.

David Coughran        [e-mail]


##

Subject: Yes 'Castle' is PD
Date: 18 Feb 91 08:37:12 MET (Mon)
From: [e-mail] (Helge Egelund Rasmussen)

Hi Steve,

> Helge- Is castle PD, as long as you're credited?

Yes it is, you may use it in any way you want.
If you use it anywhere you should also credit Marvin Landis
([e-mail]) who created the batman object.

Helge
---
Helge E. Rasmussen  .  PHONE + 45 31 37 11 00  .  E-mail:  [e-mail]
Compel A/S          .  FAX   + 45 31 37 06 44  .
Copenhagen, Denmark

##

Subject: Toaster/Lightwave 3D images
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 91 11:29:59 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

I know, I know, this is the 'Imagine' mailing list not the 'Spew random
dribble about other 3D rendering software' mailing list but since I know
many of you use more than one 3D program (as I do), you may be interested
to see what a non-raytracing program can do. So here is a copy of a message
I posted to comp.sys.amiga.graphics:

Over the past months I have received many requests to make available some
demo images from Lighwave 3D, the rendering and animation software that
comes bundled with the Toaster. So I have uploaded a few that I have created
that show off some of Lightwave's capabilities. They are on ab20.larc.nasa.gov
in incoming/amiga/Toaster_Pics. They are all interlaced overscan HAM images and
took an average of about 30 minutes to render in 24bit 1536 x 960 resolution
except for Blender and Tape which took 6.5 and 4 hours respectively because of
shadow generation. The Teapot rendered in a speedy two minutes.

Here is a quick summary:

Blender: This was my contest entry into AV Video's Amiga design contest.
  It consists of various forms of media being jammed into an osterizer.
  Highlights of this image include glass, shadows, a very nice looking
  model of a compact disc (CD), marble counter top, and a digitized
  background image (my kitchen). This image is my favorite.
City: An industrial city scape. Shows off the use of smoke (for smoke
  stacks) and depth cued fog.
F15: A camoflaged (sp?) F15 flying over a field of trees. Of special note
  are the fractal noise clouds and the flame exhaust of the F15.
Office: An office scene with various objects illuminated by a translucent
  hanging lamp and a lit candle.
Tape: A reel to reel tape deck and synth keyboard in front of three colored
  spotlights. Shows multiple colored shadows and various surfaces including
  metallic lights, brick wall, carpet, and striped wallpaper.
Teapot: The classic Newell teapot rendered with a rippling chrome surface.

Anyway, hope ya like em. If you would like to receive a 24bit version, let me
know, HAM just doesn't do these images justice!
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

##

Subject: Re: Toaster/Lightwave 3D images
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 91 16:52:16 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

I'll grab the HAM versions ASAP, but I will definitely want many, if not all, of
them in 24 bits if you are willing to send them to me.  I don't have a 24 bit
board yet, but I'll have a ColorBurst in a month or so (as soon as the FCC is
done with it).  Thanks, and if you'd like I can send you a composite of the
24 bit images I have so you can determine any you want me to send to you.  Just
let me know.

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Subject: Overscan, TAD, Cycles, Large Brushes.
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 06:22:50 EST
From: [e-mail]

4 topics in one message!

------


The Amiga's highest overscan resolution is 704 x 480 (Ignoring the nifty
new ECS 4 color super-dooper-HiRes). If you select "overscan hires" from
the size defaults menu, it instead gives you 704x440. I think the reason is
they want a nice aspect ratio- 704x440 is a nice 8 by 5, whereas 704 by 480
is a messier fraction that I don't want to figure out. (1.4666666666). If you
want to use FULL overscan, you might want to change it to 480. The 440 isn't
a limitation, just a preset.

A surprising nice feature that I discovered while mucking with this was that if
you render at greater than screen resolution (for a display board, or super
high quality, or just to play around) when you hit "display" the image will be
automatically scaled down to screen size for display. (Don't worry, the full
resolution is still there!) This is nice- you can see the whole image without
the sides or bottom cropped. The display speed (when drawing the image) goes
to about 1/3 speed as it averages. I think that when it displays overscan, it
uses a height of 440, like its default.


------

Rick Tillery was complaining about The Art Department's memory squandering.
I agree completely- that was one of my two gripes about it (that and cost).
However, Rick says that he has 5M and can't load in a full overscan pic
(704 x 480). Hmmm- I have 6M, and have no problem, (1/2 meg goes to Kickstart
though, so we are close!) I started up Imagine [ :-) ] to eat up a meg, (about
4.5 free) and still had no problem. Perhaps its chip memory? I have 2M chip,
4M fast- perhaps TAD likes chip. Oh, maybe you have an older version. I'm using
plain "The Art Department",  version 1.0.3 [not ADPro].
Another test was with 5M free, I loaded in an overscan pic, then scaled it to
110% (774 by 528). No problem. 120% didn't work, though.


------

Important fact to know about closed paths. These paths are very useful for
cycling animations (my favorate!). Each path will move whatever object or
whatever is moving along it a certain distance along its cyclic length, ending
up at its starting point. (reasonable!) The important fact to note is that the
start and stop points of an object on a circular path are the same. So? Isn't
that what we want? Yes, but sometimes we don't. Lets assume we have a closed
path on a 5 frame anim, and the path is roughly circular. Here's what we get
for object position:

     Frame        Position
     =====        ========
       1             0 deg
       2            90 deg
       3           180 deg
       4           270 deg
       5             0 deg

Whats the point? Well, if we want cyclic animations the anim will be repeated
endlessly and hopefully seamlessly. In this severe example, you can see it
doesn't work! There are 2 frames with the object in the same position- it
appears to pause as it gets back to its starting point. When I was rendering
80 frame anims, this pause was small enough I didn't notice much. In DPaintIII,
you might remember the Move requester has a "cyclic" flag to set whether a move
should go to the end point exactly, or to 1 step before. In this case, we are
really looking for:

     Frame        Position
     =====        ========
       1             0 deg
       2            72 deg
       3           144 deg
       4           216 deg
       5           288 deg


 Whats the solution? Its pretty easy, you just have to remember to do it.
Just make the cycle one frame longer than you need. Thats it! You can either
set the actor's lifetime to end one frame before the path does (for complex
scenes) or for simple scenes with all cycles ending at the last frame, you can
just not render the last frame. My 80 frame anim is really 81, but I don't
bother generating #81.

What Imagine does is reasonable, but annoying if you don't realize how it
defines starts and stops for closed paths.

-------


If you want to work with big brush maps, careful! Imagine seems to suck up
a lot of memory with brush maps when its initializing them, then once it
starts rendering, it gives it back. Example- I drew some pretty clouds in
DPaint on a 1600 by 1000 16 color picture and mapped it onto a primitive
'ground' to use as sky. (bad naming, but it works.) I actually had to free up
3.5M before Imagine would render the frame. If I had less, I would get a "not
enough memory for brushmap clouds.map..." message, and it would stop. Freeing
up the memory made it work, and it was kinda fun watching my ram meter plunge
to the very bottom readings ( 17K free!). Once it started to render ("1% done"
as opposed to "initializing") I got 1.5M back, and I used it to run a
term program, DPaint, and another copy of Imagine without a peep from the
now-cloud-rendering Imagine. This memory squeeze also happened to me once
when I was using 8 hires overscan pictures as brushmaps at once.

Note that in each of these cases, I was using either a BIG map or many small
ones. I've never had problems with normal sized ones. However, if you do run
into these problems (perhaps its more common with smaller [ram-wise]
systems) you'll know where the bottleneck is.

-------

"If you're not always running out of memory, you're not trying hard enough."


-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

##

Subject: Axis size anomaly
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 09:15:23 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

I have encountered this problem several times in my renderings, usually
when using an extruded, TS, or odd-sized object(like a table).  The problem
occurs when the axes are smaller than the area of the object.  The
object will render with attributes incompletely applied.  An example; I
have created a 100x100x100 unit cube with its axes sized to 25x25x25 and
colored red.  When I render this cube parts of it will be WHITE, as if
no attributes have been applied, and the white parts correspond to where
the axes end.  In this example, when viewing the cube from the front I
would see a 25x25 red square and the other 75 units of the object will
be white.  The problem probably wouldn't show up with a cube but will
with an irregularly shaped object like a table(legs and all) or a 3-D
font.  In order to get a proper rendering I have to resize and change
the position of the axis until I get a correct rendering.  I could
probably live with this if it was consistent but when rendering a 70
frame animation with an object that exhibits this problem some of the
frames will render correctly and some will not.  Pisses me off! ;^)
I sent a query to Impulse through People/Link but they chose not to
respond to my question.  I am hoping that the new version of Imagine
will address this, we shall see.  Has anyone else observed this?

mark

p.s. I DID send another query to Impulse this week and am awaitinga
     response.

##

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 12:27:43 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

Does anyone know of any programs which allow translating LightWave objects to
Imagine?  I know other conversions exist, but is this one available yet?

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 10:13:38 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

In a message From: [e-mail]

>4 topics in one message!
>
>------
>
>
>The Amiga's highest overscan resolution is 704 x 480 (Ignoring the nifty
>new ECS 4 color super-dooper-HiRes). If you select "overscan hires" from
>the size defaults menu, it instead gives you 704x440. I think the reason is
>they want a nice aspect ratio- 704x440 is a nice 8 by 5, whereas 704 by 480
>is a messier fraction that I don't want to figure out. (1.4666666666). If you
>want to use FULL overscan, you might want to change it to 480. The 440 isn't
>a limitation, just a preset.

Actually, the biggest screen size in hi-res is 768x482 in NTSC mode.
Unfortunately, the actual video signal limits what is actually sent to the
screen to about 736x480.  The 768x480 aspect ratio is the same as 704x440 and
640x400 so this is a good one to use.  I personally have started trying to use
the 736x480 size because it covers my entire screen (704x440 doesn't with my
A2320 de-interlacer and A1950) but doesn't waste memory on data that can't be
viewed.


>------
>
>Rick Tillery was complaining about The Art Department's memory squandering.
>I agree completely- that was one of my two gripes about it (that and cost).
>However, Rick says that he has 5M and can't load in a full overscan pic
>(704 x 480). Hmmm- I have 6M, and have no problem, (1/2 meg goes to Kickstart
>though, so we are close!) I started up Imagine [ :-) ] to eat up a meg, (about
>4.5 free) and still had no problem. Perhaps its chip memory? I have 2M chip,
>4M fast- perhaps TAD likes chip. Oh, maybe you have an older version. I'm using
>plain "The Art Department",  version 1.0.3 [not ADPro].
>Another test was with 5M free, I loaded in an overscan pic, then scaled it to
>110% (774 by 528). No problem. 120% didn't work, though.

Gee, that's me....:-)

Maybe I should clarify in detail what I have going.  I have 4 hard drive
partitions and usually use 256 buffers each (128x4 = 512K).  Then I also run
a beta 2.0 which eats another 512K.  Now we are down to 3M of fast RAM and 1
Meg of Chip and I cannot load a _768x480_ image.  Once I went to ADPro I
couldn't load a 640x480 image.  When I want to work with these sizes (and
larger up to 1024x800 but no more) I have to drop down to 1.3, kill SetCPU,
reduce my hard drive buffers and I'm OK.  It's just a pain that's all.  The
Digi View 4.0 software which also works with the full 24 bit data, has no
problem in 4 megs, why can't ASDG do as well?

>------
>
>Important fact to know about closed paths. These paths are very useful for
>cycling animations (my favorate!). Each path will move whatever object or

For those of you having Cycle problems, I think I had the same hassles and
fixed it, although it was a pain!

I created a pair of spheres separated by roughly their diameter and in the
Cycle editor created a cycle of them spinning around a central axis.

When I loaded it into the Stage editor, no joy.  It wouldn't animate (even
though it did in the Cycle Editor).  I ended up having to creat a path from
a point to that same point with no actual path and assigning the object to
it.  WHAT A PAIN!  Anyway, in conquering this "feature" I found a _bug_.
Whenever the first and last points are _exactly_ the same point, a line off
to infinity appears.  Even an offset of .0001 will fix this, but it looks
like their clipping routines are doing a divide by 0.  Oops, that's a no-no!.


>"If you're not always running out of memory, you're not trying hard enough."

I agree.  I went over to a friend's who has a full 10 megs in her 2000.  She's
never even approached that and without trying it took me 10 minutes to run
out of memory.  Granted I was playing with 24 bit files on her Firecracker,
but..... :-)


Rick Tillery


##

Subject: axis size fun
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 12:32:49 EST
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Goroway)

I found the same problem, but sort of in reverse.  When mapping bricks onto
a cube with the axis in the middle, yet smaller than the cube the results wer
were as follows:

each side had the "digital bounce" garbage in the center, in the shape of
a square, and this was surrounded by bricks! (looked sorta neat actually)

-Kevin
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
| Worcester Polytechnic Institute   | "It happens sometimes, people just     |
| [e-mail]                  |   explode, natural causes."-Repo Man   |
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=


##

Subject: Re:  axis size fun
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 15:52:53 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

Kevin Goroway wrote:

>I found the same problem, but sort of in reverse.  When mapping bricks onto
>a cube with the axis in the middle, yet smaller than the cube the results wer
>were as follows:

>each side had the "digital bounce" garbage in the center, in the shape of
>a square, and this was surrounded by bricks! (looked sorta neat actually)


I had the same problem with my BRICK cube.  What I actually saw was a 'dark'
square in the center of each face of the brick.  Get this... When I rotated
the texture axis, this dark "shadow cube" rotated as well, so I got the
projection of a rotated cube onto each face of the brick cube.  I also
got the "digital bounce" cr*p.  Did you ever figure out a way to SOLVE this?
If the axes are to be = to the SIZE of the object, as was suggested by the
posted to [e-mail], is this ALSO true for the TEXTURE axis?
Now, for NORMAL bricks the TEXTURE axis is placed in the center of the cube.
With this geometry, would the axis lengths for a cube with sides of 50 units
be 25 or 50???

Any hints would be appreciated.

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Trace time versus object size...
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 16:14:52 EST
From: "Scott Sutherland" <[e-mail]>

    All of us who are veterans of TS and neophytes of Imagine have
found out, either through trial and error or by painful minutes on the phone
with IMPULSE, that an object will trace faster if it is made larger.  The
"EXPLANATION" I once got from Mike H. was that a larger object has its points
further apart and the 'octree' method they use has a lot of trouble when it
has to calculate stuff for points close to one another (or surfaces close to
one another).  I do not know how correct this explanation is, but suffice it
to say that it DOES work.

Now, to give everyone a taste of how much of a difference it makes, let me
tell you the following "story".  I have been creating a mannequin in the
DETAIL editor of Imagine using the spin, sweep, slice, and skin (the 4 S's!).
I was NOT concerned with the actual size of the object at first, so I never paid
attention to it.  As I developed it, I tried test images of various parts with
both the scanline and trace modes.  Even though the object has NO reflection,
transparency, and the lights cast no shadows, I was still surprised that the
trace times were not much longer than the scanline times (10% greater or so).
Well, when I FINALLY finished my mannequin (all 29 parts, and parts is parts..
... pieces parts ;^) was 1200 (yes, that is twelve hundred) units tall.
Well, seeing that the universe is only + or - 1000 units on each axis by
default, I figured that he was TOO big.  Let's say I wanted to put him
into a city scape and have him walk the streets.  Well, for reasonably sized
buildings, if the man is 6 ft. tall, the buildings will be 200+ feet tall.
Using this analogy, my city would be 40000 ft tall, far exceeding the size
of the Imagine universe.  BTW, a 200x200 trace of my entire mannequin (many,
many faces and points) at 1200 units tall takes ~4 minutes.  The scanline
time is ~3.5 minutes.  Okay, I decided to shrink my object to be more
proportional to the universe size.  I decided to shrink him to 12 units tall
(one unit = ~0.5 ft in my system).  I did so, repositioned the lights and
camera to give the same view I had before, and did a scanline rendering of
it.  It took 3.5 minutes, so I had no problems.

Later I tried to do a full trace, and after a LONG initialization phase, I
watched the % rendered number slow to a snails pace.  For the sake of posterity,
I decided to let the entire image render (again in 200x200).  GET THIS...  the
rendering time was 45 MINUTES, over a factor of 40 longer than for my 1200
unit mannequin.   I increased his size to ~120 and the rendering took ~25
minutes.  NOTE:  FOR ALL 3 sizes the SCANLINE trace times are UNAFFECTED.

This is a SIGNIFICANT time difference and I hope it gives you a feel for just
how much difference object size can make.  I do NOT profess to understand
the technical reasons why the size has such an effect, but since it IS true,
Impulse should make the universe be as large as the user wants.


BTW... Did anyone ever figure out how to change the WORLD SIZE, EDGE LEVEL,
and/or the RESOLVE DEPTH from WITHIN Imagine (i.e. NOT having to alter
the .CONFIG file after exiting Imagine and having to re-run it???

Thanks,

Scott Sutherland
[e-mail]

##

Subject: Re: axis size fun
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 16:50:20 PST
From: "Mark W. Davis  206.865.8749" <[e-mail]>

I am now in the habit of making the axis about 10 units larger
than that object size when working with objects in general.  For
"special effects" I vary the individual axes as needed.  I also make
sure, when using textures, that no axis touches an edge of an object.
I assume that although only the positive "directions" of the axes
show, they extend in the negative direction as well.  I may be wrong, but
it works for me.  Hope I am making sense. :)

mark

##

Subject: LightWave --> Imagine
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 15:18:14 EST
From: Mark Thompson <[e-mail]>

> Does anyone know of any programs which allow translating LightWave objects to
> Imagine?  I know other conversions exist, but is this one available yet?

I had asked NewTek about their object format because I was going to
write such a translator. They said that John Foust was already in the
process of writing a Lightwave module for Interchange. With this and
the latest TS module, you should be all set. I don't know how long its
going to be till the Lightwave module is ready, but if its much longer,
I will probably request the object format from NewTek (again).
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
%                                                                       %
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##

Subject: Re: LightWave --> Imagine
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 91 20:25:34 -0600
From: Donald Richard Tillery Jr <[e-mail]>

Gee, you're a busy guy :-)

All those awesome 24 bit pics and you want to write a converter too!

Anyway, did you get the images?  Let me know if any look worth getting.  BTW,
with the exception of the rightmost 3, if you want to use this crap anywhere
(as brush or background etc.) you can have at it.  They're yours to do with
as you please (if you please :-).

Rick Tillery ([e-mail])


##

Subject: Re: Imagine Surface definitions
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 91 15:18:14 EST
From: mark@calvin..westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson)

>       Does anyone know how to simulate glass using the Video Toaster's
>3D Lightwave module?

No problem. For a colorless clear glass, try something like this:

Color: 230, 230, 240 (only a slight blue tint)
Diffuse: 70%
Specular: 100%
Highlight Size: High
Color Highlight: Off
Transparency: 95%
Reflectivity: 30% (optional if you have an image or background to reflect)
Edges: Opaque
Smoothing: On

By making the surface nearly completely transparent but making the edges
opaque, it gives the appearance of a glass object rather than an object
that is just fading out. Also note that when creating glass objects, you
must pay attention to interior polygons that might otherwise not be
rendered because of back-face culling. For example, if you create a glass
sphere, you must create it with 2 sided polygons so that the back of the
sphere is visible through the transparent front.

Hope this helps.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
%       `       '                Mark Thompson                          %
%  --==* RADIANT *==--           [e-mail]                 %
%       ' Image `                ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark       %
%      Productions               [phone]  [phone]           %
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##

Subject: New list members
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 91 03:06:20 EST
From: [e-mail]

Just added 32 people today, I'm sure I'll add more tomorrow. Current
list membership: 130, and I expect it will level off at 160, then grow
again when I'll repost the list invite on comp.sys.amiga.graphcs in mid-
March.

Some points/questions from members.


 From [e-mail]:

From what I've seen, Imagine is a product that TurboSilver gurus love.  I'm
a novice at rendering and the learning curve is fairly steep.  The most
annoying problem that I've run into is that while attempting to open a
subproject, the system locks up (mouse pointer doens't move).  When I've
gotten stuck, I usually refer my questions to the local Amiga shop.  There
is usually someone there with TS experience who can help.  I'd really _love_
to have a good manual.



The lock up puzzles me- maybe task priority, or multitasking problem with
another program? I've never had this problem. -SPW

---
One user asks: "How much mail per week should I expect?"


Very variable. I would say an average of 30 letters a week, but I'm
not looking at my mailbox to check. With many people working at companies
rather than schools, list posting tends to be much heavier during the
weekdays. Also, popular topics sometimes cause a flurry of mail in the
space of a day or two. -SPW

----
Yet another question:
"Do you have a past message archive available for ftp?"


No. However, I have been keeping a personal archive of all the traffic-
I hope to go through and merge them into one file, removing the deadwood
like my cheezy "Oh, boy! We have 30 members now" messages. Of course,
this takes some effort on my part. There's only 190 messages so far, so
its a reasonable archive, but not a bible. I'll try to do it by message
#250.  Someone else could volunteer, though... :-)   -SPW


-------
"Can I redistribute the mail to a private list?"


I set a policy that nobody objected to- you can do anything you want with
the mail you get, including mailing it the Martian Underground. You can
even sell it (good luck!). The caveat is that it must be credited.
Redistributing it takes care of this- authors sign their work. It'd
be nice to say that it came from the "USENET Imagine Mailing List,
[e-mail], join now!" but it doesn't have to.

My philosophy is that the list is to discuss Imagine, and the larger the
list, the more discussion. Our SNR is so high I'm not really worried
about message cruft at all right now.


------


The simple instructions on how to post:

1) send mail to [e-mail]  ->  anything you send gets
   redirected to 130 people.

2) Wait until you have another idea/question/answer you want to post, then
   go to step #1.

Don't be afraid to ask any questions you have, or to answer anyone else's
questions.

NOTE!

  "repl"ying to a post will send e-mail to the AUTHOR, and not to the
list. If this is what you want to do, fine, but if you are answering a
question, or giving advice or whatever, send it (or cc: it at least)
to the list so everyone can see the solution.


Keep on Rendering!

-Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Worley                                           [e-mail]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------




##

Subject: Paths and shadows.
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 1991 14:04:19 +0100
From: Marek Rzewuski <[e-mail]>

Hello everybody!

I have a two problems at the monent. One width making shadows look really true
and the other one is width making an advanced path for an animation. My english
isn't to good, but I hope you will excuse me for that and understand my
problems width Imagine.

The shadows in Imagine (and any other raytrace-program I've used on Amiga) are
very sharp. They are to sharp to be true. In the real world thy dosn't look this
way. Very often an raytraced picture look to perfect. Very often it's easy to see
that a picture is raytraced. I guess it's because it's mathematic perfect
(or is it not?). Very often the objects dosn't look very real eighter. But fixing
object is't easier, because it's possible to put an IFF brush on the texture
and make the object look old or used.
My questions are: if it possible to make soft shadows in Imagine? Have anyone thought
about the problem before me, and found any solution?

My second problem is an advanced path.
Imagine that you are standing on a left side of a road. On your left side there is a
brickwall and a gate in it. It's dark and there are some few lamps on the street.
The story of the animation is: the gate opens, a car comes out of it, drives
towards and by you. It's nothing unusuall about the situation.
My problem is the paths for my objects. The problem is to make this look real.
In the beginning the car is driving slowly, and it's picking up more and more speed while
entering the curve.
It's an very old car. Imgine one old big Mercedes (from 1930-40s) width big black and
white wheels, lot of chrome and two big lights in front.
The wheels got to turn left when the car is coming into the curve and rotate in
a speed which dosn't look silly. It'll look rather silly if the car is driving
fast and the wheels are rolling slooowwwllyyy. The wheel on the right side can't
rotate as fast as the wheel on the left side. And alle the tings got to follow
a curve and accelate! At the same time two lights got to be inside the frontlights
of the car lightning up objects in front of them.
Has anyone some ideas how to solve my problem? Is it possible?
I haven't used paths before, so the subject is quite new for me.

In advance thank you.

M.R.
[e-mail]